Confession

[dizerner]

The real antichrist will perform actual miracles, how can you say that's the pope.

[canada]

Convince the Roman Catholic of that.

[TheEditor]

I don't subscribe to the papal antichrist theory, but curiously there are a lot of traditionalist Catholics that believe the antichrist will come out of the Vatican.

Regards, Brenden.

[Singalphile]

Here's my confession. I just can't seem to figure out a way to get a good enough handle on eschatology to form a view that I feel comfortable with. .... Any suggestions for me?

1) Don't worry about it. 2) Don't make it a focal point of your life or studies. 3) Read the Bible cover to cover repeatedly and devotionally.

I've got #1 and #2 down pat! Perhaps if you do #3 enough times, eschatology will all come into focus. If it doesn't? Then you'll be a wise, faithful, hopeful, loving, Christ-like person who's undecided about "eschatology". And that's not so bad.

I think the parallel book on the eschatatological readings of Revelation is a great piece of this and I liked it a lot, but even that is hard to figure out without having informed views of lots of other eschatogy-related passages outside Revelation.

Steve's Revelation book is exceptionally good, imo, b/c it makes you do #3 above (in part) while also explaining different interpretations. (Every Christian book should be like it, imho). A companion book that went through all non-Revelation passages that are thought to be related (Olivet Discourse, parts of Thess., parts of Ezek, Dan, etc.) would be quite interesting probably.

I don't subscribe to the papal antichrist theory, but curiously there are a lot of traditionalist Catholics that believe the antichrist will come out of the Vatican.

I can see how that would make some sense since the man of lawlessness "takes his seat in the temple of God" (2 Thess 2:4).

[dizerner]

The temple of God is clearly the human heart, though...

[Singalphile]

The temple of God is clearly the human heart, though...

I hadn't heard heard that.

[robbyyoung]

Here's my confession. I just can't seem to figure out a way to get a good enough handle on eschatology to form a view that I feel comfortable with. .... Any suggestions for me?

1) Don't worry about it. 2) Don't make it a focal point of your life or studies. 3) Read the Bible cover to cover repeatedly and devotionally.

Hi Singalphile,

Respectfully, your points 1 & 2 are not tenable to the message of the gospel or The Prophets. 'Don't worry about it?' So your advice is to ignore The Prophet? Thank God the 1st Century Believers didn't heed this advice. There IS NO dichotomy in the gospel and Prophet's message. Yeshua's prophetic message certianly DID NOT tell His audience to NOT worry about prophecy or NOT to focus on it. What do you think THEY were being saved from? Read: Matt 3:7, 1 Thess 1:10

Futurists, better not take your advice. However, The Preterist is assured, through scripture, these judgements already took place and can appreciate the historical account and move on to maturity in Kingdom life. Either way, IMHO, your advice is unbiblical and should be reconsidered.

God Bless.

[steve]

Robby,

I agree with Singalphile's two points that you said are unbiblical. I know of no case of any biblical writer telling believers to worry about eschatology, nor to focus upon it in their studies. Jesus did not recommend that believers should either worry about or obsess with the end events. If your system is correct, there certainly is nothing in the eschatological passages for any modern Christian to concern himself with, since it has all happened in the past, and we would do better to concern ourselves with the present task.

[robbyyoung]

Robby,

I agree with Singalphile's two points that you said are unbiblical. I know of no case of any biblical writer telling believers to worry about eschatology, nor to focus upon it in their studies. Jesus did not recommend that believers should either worry about or obsess with the end events.

Hi Steve,

I find it hard to believe that you would say the prophetic message given to 1st Century Believers was nothing to be concerned about.

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (so I guess they have nothing to be concerned about if they DO NOT endure to the end?)

Listen Steve, I'm not going to give scripture after scripture to prove my point. The 1st Century Believers had plenty to concern themselves with concerning prophecy. The end of the age and it's gospel message, was an OBSESSION. They had approximately 40 years to accomplish their task. Then you said, the 1st Century Believers shouldn't have obsessed over end of the age events; how could you read The Revelation and come to this conclusion? Exactly when should you obsess over statements that say, "Yeshua is comely quickly"?

IMHO, the error is misplaced eschatology and the concern its message inherently brings to a subject audience. The Prophets would NEVER say, don't concern yourself with what I'm about to say. I'm not getting it Steve. Maybe you can help me see your point.

God Bless.

[steve]

I find it hard to believe that you would say the prophetic message given to 1st Century Believers was nothing to be concerned about.

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (so I guess they have nothing to be concerned about if they DO NOT endure to the end?)

I did not say it was nothing to be concerned about. However, the advice that Singalphile gave to CThomas was not to worry about it. Jesus specifically told His disciples not to worry about the future, which makes Singalphile's advice comp[letely scriptural.

Also, since neither CThomas nor Singalphile (nor any of us) are first-century Christians, I cannot see what relevance your observation might have to the validity of Singalphile's advice.

Listen Steve, I'm not going to give scripture after scripture to prove my point. The 1st Century Believers had plenty to concern themselves with concerning prophecy. The end of the age and it's gospel message, was an OBSESSION. They have approximately 40 years to accomplish their task. Then you said, the 1st Century Believers shouldn't have obsessed over end of the age events; how could you read The Revelation and come to this conclusion? Exactly when should you obsess over statements that say, "Yeshua is comely quickly"?

I don't think that the writing of the Book of Revelation and the prayer that Christ should come quickly describe an obsession with the end times by the first century Christians. I assume they were a lot like many modern Christians, including myself, who find it very appropriate to read the Book of Revelation and to pray "Come quickly, Jesus"—but who do not obsess in any way over eschatological issues.

Again, even if it were the case that the first century Christians were focused disproportionately on future things, I do not see how your view of their past fulfillment would give any reason for modern Christians, living after the events, to focus on such things, other than to marvel at the accuracy of the predictions that were fulfilled. We can all appreciate the proof of inspiration that fulfilled prophecy provides, but these fulfilled prophecies do not become our obsession in seeking to be disciples of Jesus day by day. This is what, I think, Singalphile was getting at—and I would agree completely.