Eschatological Views

[JacobMartinMertens]

I grew up under dispensationalism. No Zionism, however.

I understand dispensationalism to be part of premillenialism. Other views in Christianity would be amillenialism and postmillenialism. I have also heard of preterism, whether partial preterism or full preterism. Are there any other views?

My curiosity is that the new covenant came about 2,000 years ago. So we are not waiting for the new covenant, though we await the return of Christ.

My last comment is that my personal belief is that the new covenant was not already in place before the coming of Jesus the Christ (Yeshua the Messiah).

[steve]

Hi Jacob,

There are many sub-categories of various views:

Premillennialists are divided between "dispensationalists" and "historic premillennialists." The latter hold most related doctrines (e.g., the status of Israel, the nature of the kingdom of God, etc.) in common with amillennialists, with the exception of expecting a millennial period after the second coming. "Historic premillennialists" are called that because many of the earliest church fathers held that view, historically. Dispensational premillennialism, on the other hand, arose as a system less than two centuries ago.

Postmillennialists believe in the conversion of the majority of humanity prior to the second coming. They can either hold the view that the so-called millennium represents the period after this global conversion, but prior to the second coming, or else they can see it similarly to the amillennialists, seeing the 1000 years as beginning at the cross and ending in the eschatological future.

Amillennialists can be of two types: optimistic and pessimistic. The former are barely distinguishable from postmillennialists. The latter share with premillennialists a pessimistic view of the end times.

With reference to the Book of Revelation, premillennialists are generally "futurists" (i.e., looking for future fulfillment).

Postmillennialists and amillennialists are seldom futurists with reference to Revelation, and may be "historicists" (seeing fulfillment progressing through the church age), "idealists" (seeing the meaning of the visions as entirely symbolic and theological), or "preterists" (seeing fulfillment as past, usually in AD 66-70).

The above-mentioned "preterists" should be called "partial preterists," because they still anticipate a future second coming of Christ, accompanied by resurrection, rapture, judgment and the creation of a new cosmos. By contrast, "full-preterists" believe everything has been fulfilled around AD 70, including the second advent, the resurrection and the new creation. Full-preterists would not generally label themselves as amillennial, premillennial or postmillennial. They are a separate camp to themselves.

[Paidion]

Greetings Jacob,

Though I would presently be classified as a "historic premillenialist" I don't put a lot of stock in eschatology. No one knows exactly what will happen. Also, the negative predicted events don't HAVE to happen, if there is a mass repentance.

God prophesied through Jonah that Ninevah would be overthrown in forty days. (Jonah 3:4) But when the Ninevites repented, and God saw how the Ninevites turned from their evil way, He changed His mind concerning the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it. (Jonah 3:10).

I think the same thing applies to many or most of the prophecies which concern future disasters. They need not happen if there is widespread repentance (a change of heart and mind on the part of people).

[dwilkins]

After listening recently to a series of sermons given in 1962 I am reminded that many important Dispensationalists of the era were not Zionists. I don't think they'd play well today, but it is a fact of history. Their position was essentially that only Christ can regather the Jews into the land at the second coming, so any attempt to do so before hand is clearly Satanic and evil.

Doug

[TheEditor]

Hi Doug,

What speech were you listening to? The Dispensationalists that I have read in the past were all from the 19th century into the early 20th. Many of them were Zionists. In fact, some of them encouraged the purchase of land in Palestine by wealthy Jews such as Baron Rothchild.

Regards, Brenden.

[dwilkins]

The specific lesson was from a 1962 audio series (taped sermons) on Isaiah by Robert Thieme Jr. He was a DTS grad in 1949 and considered pretty mainstream by them in the early 60's (he fell out of favor by the 1980's). A number of Dispensational luminaries studied under him in their early careers (Hal Lindsey, Chuck Swindoll, John MacArthur, etc.), and it's my impression that before the 67 and 73 wars that his position represents a significant portion of Dispensationalists. He was very pro-Jewish, but saw the nation of Israel that had recently been formed as a violation of the principle that only Christ would regather Israel at the second coming (the Orthodox anti-Zionist Jews of the 20th Century agreed with him on this).

Doug

[dwilkins]

You can get any of his lessons for free here:

http://rbthieme.org/

He started out as a demanding but not unusual conservative teacher in the 50's and 60's, but eventually drifted away from the mainstream (I think primarily because he didn't find input from outsiders to be useful).

Doug

[JacobMartinMertens]

I actually don't know anything about Zionism. Some say it is good and some say it is bad. Some say you are crazy if you are a Zionist. I don't know what a Zionist is, but dispensationalism is what I was... and Zionism was not stressed.

We heard the gospel preached. We didn't have ties with Israel. But no one questioned Israel's existence. In fact, some people interpret the Bible to say that Israel has a specific place in prophecy and eschatology. But whether or not that is true is not the point here in this thread, though it is not of consequence to me if it is discussed.

I would rather start with Torah and see what I can learn about the history of God's people from there.