Dispensationalism

End Times
dizerner

Dispensationalism

Post by dizerner » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:59 am

Can someone explain to me the general disdain for this doctrine and how people commonly understand it.

The Bible does seem to have different ages or set periods of time, so what is it that most people object to?

I know—I'm amazingly ignorant on this. References or links are welcome. Thanks for any help.

dwilkins
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Re: Dispensationalism

Post by dwilkins » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:04 pm

There is no doubt that there are different dispensations or eras in the scripture. The question is how they are interpreted to provide a framework for explaining history. My primary problem with dispensationalists is that they assert that the current era is one that is not foreseen by scripture before the ministry of Christ. From their point of view, the function of the church is not an extension of the narrative that built up to the arrival of Christ in history. Instead, it's an interlude in the middle of that story. So, the history of Israel lead to Christ, and eschatology will be the final portion of the story as it relates to Israel. But, the church has nothing directly to do with that. In Dispensationalism, the church represents a period where the message of salvation will spread throughout the world (theoretically, the completion of the Great Commission will result in the world being full of the largest number of believers yet in history) but then all believers will be removed in order to allow for God to judge those who are left. This system deliberately allows for a suspension of the anticipation of the judgment (so a suspension of the New Testament eschatological time statements) against Judea that Christ foretold in the Olivet Discourse and other places by inserting this interlude (A Basic Guide to Eschatology, Millard Erickson).

As a corollary, when dispensationalism was invented it resulted in a radical new view of the role of Jews in the modern era. The church had never accepted the unbelieving Jews as people who were still under covenant with God. Jews who'd rejected God were seen as a group of people with no future, just like the rest of unbelieving humanity. Dispensationalism, since it proposed that history ended with a judgment centered around the Jews, enthusiastically embraced a role for the Jews as a nation in the modern era. In fact, since dispensationalism proposed that the Jews had to be a nation in the land at the time of the end, and since they anticipated the end as happening very soon, dispensationalists were a major force in creating the modern state of Israel. That state was needed in order to have the battle of Armageddon and thus the second coming. Modern Jews had been through waves of Zionist thought throughout the Enlightenment era, so once Christianity picked up a similar outlook it was only a matter of time until nations (Britain and the US) led or influenced by Zionist adherents helped to make this happen. Interestingly, though most Christians see themselves as being benevolent to Jews by giving them a homeland, it is not uncommon in Jewish circles for them to see the theological issues more clearly. From the point of view of a number of Jews, they see Christian Zionists as people who are trying to corral the Jews into one place so that the majority of them can be destroyed in the battle of Armageddon.

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the church and the way that history will unfold.

Doug

dizerner

Re: Dispensationalism

Post by dizerner » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:26 pm

Thanks Doug. From that description I don't quite think I'm a dispensationalist although I'm still not 100% sure.

dwilkins
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Re: Dispensationalism

Post by dwilkins » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:47 pm

According to Charles Ryrie, a renowned dispensational scholar, dispensationalism can be defined by two main points. First, you have to interpret scripture as literally as possible. Second, there will never be a merger between the church and Israel. Though I think the first point is hermeneutically incoherent (there is no objective standard for when to interpret things literally), the second point is probably the most distinctive. According to Ryrie, Jews who become believers in this age become Christians and are no longer Jews (which is a source of tension between Messianic Jews and dispensationalists). But, when the church age ends and Christians leave the earth (probably for good) the Jews once again become the active people of God in earth history. At that point, it's not clear whether Gentiles who get saved (lets say in the millennium) become Jews or some other category no explicitly described in scripture. But, it is clear that Jews have an earthly destiny and the Church has a heavenly one. There is no overlap between the two groups and they never merge.

In my experience, most of dispensationalism sounds reasonable on a superficial level (interpret scripture literally, be nice to Jews), but when you dig down to the implications of the system it becomes rather silly.

Doug

steve7150
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Re: Dispensationalism

Post by steve7150 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:51 pm

Can someone explain to me the general disdain for this doctrine and how people commonly understand it.

The Bible does seem to have different ages or set periods of time, so what is it that most people object to?

I know—I'm amazingly ignorant on this. References or links are welcome. Thanks for any help








I think the disdain or part of it comes from the profiteering some of made from sensationalizing the second coming and the rapture and making it seem we could expedite these events by helping Israel.
My personal opinion is that Israel did get reborn through God's purposes and not because a group of evangelicals convinced the United Nations to vote for Israel's creation. It was the Holocaust that for a brief moment in time engendered the sympathies of enough countries to vote for Israel. So if you believe prophecy does not end in 70AD, then I think these events with Islam and how it directly counters and opposes Christianity and seeks to destroy Israel is something to take notice of. IMO Islam is Satan's religion from the time it was created and has awakened again now to try to conquer the world. A couple of guys I like are Joel Richardson and Jim Staley and Walid Shoebat, and you can see them of YouTube.

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Paidion
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Re: Dispensationalism

Post by Paidion » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:35 pm

Here another (perhaps little known) element of dispensationalism. The present dispensation (of the Church) was not in the plan of God. The next dispensation (the Kingdom) was offered by Christ to the Jews, but they rejected it. Thus there had to be a "parenthesis" (their term) inserted into the sequence until Christ's return, when He will offer the Kingdom to the Jews again. At that time, they will accept it. So God has one plan for the Church, and a different plan for the Jews. In the dispensation of the Kingdom, the sacrificial system will be reinstated for the Jews. Dispensationalists also tend to have a special regard for Jews as "God's chosen people." They believe that this special place for the Jews (as religious Jews) in God's economy has never been altered.

They also distinguish between Matthew's term "the Kingdom of Heaven" and the term "the Kingdom of God" used by the other gospel writers.

If you can get hold of a "Scofield Reference Bible" you can learn a lot about dispensationalism from Scofield's footnotes. Here is a sample of one of Scofield's notes concerning Jesus' words, "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand":
Scofield wrote:"At hand" is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be "at hand" will immediately appear, but only that no known or predicted event must intervene. When Christ appeared to the Jewish people, the next thing in the order of revelation as it then stood, should have been the setting up of the Davidic kingdom. In the knowledge of God, not yet disclosed, lay the rejection of the kingdom (and King), the long period of the mystery-form of the kingdom, the world-wide preaching of the cross, and the out-calling of the Church. But this was as yet locked up in the secret counsels of God (Mt.13: 11,17, Eph. 3:3-10)
My mother was a strong dispensationalist, and I copied the above note from her Scofield Reference Bible. She used to read a dispensationalist monthly magazine called "Our Hope". This title was a reference to the rapture, the secret coming of Christ which is supposed to occur prior to a seven-year tribulation period, followed by what's commonly known as the second coming of Christ to set up his 1000-year Kingdom reign (after defeating the antichrist), during which the raptured saints return to earth to rule with Him.

Dispensationalism was unknown prior to 1830, when Margaret McDonald picked it up from a visit to the Catholic Apostolic Church where she heard it as a revelation from a prophet. Darby, from the group of Plymouth Brethren known as "The Exclusive Brethren" picked it up from Margaret, and was so enthralled with the teaching, he spread it to the exclusive assemblies of brethren, and from there it spread to the more open assemblies, and ultimately to many other evangelical and fundamentalist groups.
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: Dispensationalism

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:03 am

Long before I even knew what dispensationalism was, I remember watching some "Christian" movie at a church or youth group. The rapture had taken place and the world was in chaos. TV reporters were saying that airplane pilot's just disappeared and the stunned copilot had to take over the controls. Other planes crashed. Cars crashed. Trains crashed. Christians all over the world disappeared and no one knew for sure where they went. Some family members remembered their Christian loved ones had warned them that someday this would happen. They also warned them that a man who would be the antichrist would appear on the scene to take over the world.

All these things scared me. Later I wondered why the Bible didn't mention the confusion on the earth after the rapture. Before long, a book series started called "Left Behind" and I found out that it was pretty much the same message as the movie, only in the form of a novel. Well, as time went on there was another book written in the series. Then another, and another, they just kept coming. I noticed many Christians were eagerly buying them and couldn't wait for the next one. It had become a Christian fad. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins were the authors. There were 16 books in the series! I remember thinking that LaHaye and Jenkins were making money hand over fist with these books. I was very suspicious and decided that I would never buy one of their books. I just looked it up. Over 63 millions copies of the Left Behind Books have been sold. I'm not even sure if that is up to date. They may have sold more.

American Christians can be very naive. Let someone come out with a new book that has anything to do with God or the Bible, especially a novel, and they will buy it immediately. All they are doing is padding the bank account of the "author". And many so-called authors know this, so they crank out the books. Look at the Joel Osteen books. His message is not Biblical but he is making millions from his books. I think the same was true with the Left Behind books.

Then I heard Steve Gregg on the radio and online, probably around 2010, and my suspicions were confirmed about the dispensationalism teaching. It is false. It is not Biblical.

dizerner

Re: Dispensationalism

Post by dizerner » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:41 am

dwight92070 wrote:Long before I even knew what dispensationalism was, I remember watching some "Christian" movie at a church or youth group. The rapture had taken place and the world was in chaos. TV reporters were saying that airplane pilot's just disappeared and the stunned copilot had to take over the controls. Other planes crashed. Cars crashed. Trains crashed. Christians all over the world disappeared and no one knew for sure where they went. Some family members remembered their Christian loved ones had warned them that someday this would happen. They also warned them that a man who would be the antichrist would appear on the scene to take over the world.

All these things scared me. Later I wondered why the Bible didn't mention the confusion on the earth after the rapture. Before long, a book series started called "Left Behind" and I found out that it was pretty much the same message as the movie, only in the form of a novel. Well, as time went on there was another book written in the series. Then another, and another, they just kept coming. I noticed many Christians were eagerly buying them and couldn't wait for the next one. It had become a Christian fad. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins were the authors. There were 16 books in the series! I remember thinking that LaHaye and Jenkins were making money hand over fist with these books. I was very suspicious and decided that I would never buy one of their books. I just looked it up. Over 63 millions copies of the Left Behind Books have been sold. I'm not even sure if that is up to date. They may have sold more.

American Christians can be very naive. Let someone come out with a new book that has anything to do with God or the Bible, especially a novel, and they will buy it immediately. All they are doing is padding the bank account of the "author". And many so-called authors know this, so they crank out the books. Look at the Joel Osteen books. His message is not Biblical but he is making millions from his books. I think the same was true with the Left Behind books.

Then I heard Steve Gregg on the radio and online, probably around 2010, and my suspicions were confirmed about the dispensationalism teaching. It is false. It is not Biblical.
In your mind can a belief in a real future antichrist or a real future rapture ever be separated from dispensationalism? At first you only focused on the church in relation to the Jews as the main thrust of what dispensationalism teaches. I'm agnostic on the rapture but lean against the common understanding of it.

I believe in a literal future antichrist and kingdom of the beast forcing some kind of subjection (mark), but of course commercialization of Christian teaching is always wrong, not just in matters of end times. But also I think the regenerate Jews and the Church are both for all time (both in OT and NT) called spiritual Jews by Scripture and are one family of God and one body of Christ and one olive tree, and Jews who reject grace always are unsaved. Does this make me a dispensationalist or not one? I just want to know where I fit.

steve7150
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Re: Dispensationalism

Post by steve7150 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:01 am

In your mind can a belief in a real future antichrist or a real future rapture ever be separated from dispensationalism?










Sure as you can customize your belief in eschatology and not subscribe to a specific system. I think the general theme of dispensationalism is good but certain elements seem unlikely such as a third temple for example. You don't have to accept a 7 year tribulation or even a specific AntiChrist figure.

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Homer
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Re: Dispensationalism

Post by Homer » Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:52 am

Something called "word capture" has happened with the word "dispensation":
dis·pen·sa·tion

1. exemption from a rule or usual requirement.
"although she was too young, she was given special dispensation to play two matches"

synonyms: exemption, immunity, exception, exoneration, reprieve, remission
"a dispensation from the Pope"

•permission to be exempted from the laws or observances of a church.
"he received papal dispensation to hold a number of benefices"

2. a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., especially as existing at a particular time.
"scholarship is conveyed to a wider audience than under the old dispensation"

synonyms: system, order, arrangement, organization
Looking at definition #2 I think most would agree there has been a dispensation of the patriarchs, the Law of Moses, and now the Christian era. This kind of use of the word has long been understood and used. But "dispensationalism" has taken the word over until there is a hesitancy among others to use the word at all.

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