Why get emotional about eschatology?

End Times
Timios
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by Timios » Thu May 04, 2017 11:04 pm

In Jesus' talk in Matthew 24, he says in verses 30 and 31 that everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, and that he will send his angels to gather his elect from everywhere. Did that happen before that generation passed away?

PR
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by PR » Fri May 05, 2017 7:27 am

PR wrote:Doesn't this address when?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Phil
steve wrote:That verse addresses a prerequisite, but gives no idea of time. It does not answer "when will these things be?" It does address chronology of events, but does not address the timeframe as does "this generation will not pass..."
Perhaps the question of time is not answered in a calendar sense, but in a completed task sense. Some would say that because a larger percentage than ever of the global population has heard the gospel, we're closer than ever to completing this task.

Phil

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remade
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by remade » Fri May 05, 2017 10:03 am

Timios wrote:In Jesus' talk in Matthew 24, he says in verses 30 and 31 that everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, and that he will send his angels to gather his elect from everywhere. Did that happen before that generation passed away?
If you're truly interested and open to the possibility of alternative interpretations, I would highly recommend Steve Gregg's "When Will These Things Be?" (I listened to them going to work for a week or so). It can be found at the bottom of THIS webpage. http://thenarrowpath.com/topical_lectures.php

In the meantime, to answer your question, let me ask you to consider the following:

Isaiah 19:1 states:
19 An oracle concerning Egypt.

Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt;
and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,
and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
As you read through the rest of Isaiah 19 you see other prophetic phrases. Many (if not most... all) say that that prophesy concerning Egypt was fulfilled. Did God come down on a swift cloud do you think? I think He did, just not literally. But His judgments concerning Egypt were done by His hand.

Jesus is speaking prophetically very much so in His Olivet Discourse.
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
- II CORINTHIANS 5:21 ESV

steve7150
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by steve7150 » Fri May 05, 2017 6:41 pm

THIS LONG STORY summarized: my question, as my subject is, is why eschatology often an emotional thing for adherents? Is this the case for adherents to all eschatologies, or just for dispensationalists, or are some eschatologies more prone to have emotional adherents that almost brand other views and view-adherents as heretics? I do recall that many of the reformed historicists branded other views as heresy, and saw other views as attempts to move away from the reformed / historicist view of the Catholic church in Revelation. Is it a eschatology issue, or is it a personal issue to make this grouping of theology an emotional adherence and just an intellectual adherence?





One would think the idea of Jesus returning and just cleaning up the crazy mess of this age would be the event that triggers the imagination of Dispensationalists. Yet other views also believe in Christ's second coming like Historicists and Partial Preterists but they don't seem to follow the current events so passionately with the purpose of predicting the end of the age. So perhaps the excitement of matching up world historical events with the eschatological theology you believe in might be a thrilling concept to many folks. It's like having secret information that secular people have no idea about but God has chosen to disclose to you and other special people! On the other hand i have seen many Full Preterists get very emotional about their system to the point where you sometimes can't discuss it with them and also sometimes quite anti-Israel perhaps to simply counter Dispensationalists who are pro-Israel.

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remade
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by remade » Fri May 05, 2017 8:44 pm

steve7150 said:
the excitement of matching up world historical events with the eschatological theology you believe in might be a thrilling concept to many folks. It's like having secret information that secular people have no idea about but God has chosen to disclose to you and other special people! On the other hand i have seen many Full Preterists get very emotional about their system to the point where you sometimes can't discuss it with them and also sometimes quite anti-Israel perhaps to simply counter Dispensationalists who are pro-Israel.
Steve, that is a very true observation. I've not met full preterists until recently, and it shocked me, how intense they get. One has been coming to the church I attend, and he told me the sole purpose he doesn't attend church with the rest of his family (that's right, this man attends our church alone though his family attends elsewhere), is the pastor's dispensational eschatology. I have never attended that particular church myself, so I don't know, but most popular dispensational pastors I would assume (one or two I've sat under), is usually a mild-form of dispensationalism that only rears it's head during common passages used to promote it.

It was amazing to me that just as intense as some dispensationalists can be though, so have two of the full preterists I've recently met, which read 70 AD, and Israel being done, and the church being brought in, in almost EVERY passage of Scripture so as to make much of it obsolete for present day Christians.
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
- II CORINTHIANS 5:21 ESV

Timios
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by Timios » Sat May 06, 2017 9:44 am

Matthew 24

30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So, Remade, the coming of Jesus on the clouds of heaven and great glory is just figurative language. Right?

31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Is this gathering of Christ's elect also figurative? And if so, what does it mean?

Singalphile
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by Singalphile » Sat May 06, 2017 10:59 am

Recap:

People get emotional about their eschatology because they ...
  1. view it as a defining, core tenet of Christianity (~jeremiah),
  2. are fearful and thin-skinned, lacking confidence in their reasoning and understanding (~jasonmodar),
  3. feel important, excited, and thrilled by it, which they don't want to give up (~steve7150),
  4. or have some emotional investment in "Israel", in one way or another (~steve7150).
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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remade
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by remade » Sat May 06, 2017 7:10 pm

Timios wrote:Matthew 24

30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So, Remade, the coming of Jesus on the clouds of heaven and great glory is just figurative language. Right?

31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Is this gathering of Christ's elect also figurative? And if so, what does it mean?
Timios -

"Angels" in this verse is the same Greek word often used for "messenger" (Used in Mark 1:2, quoting Isaiah, whom in turn was referring to John the Baptist).

A "loud trumpet call" was used in the Old Testament often calling God's people to engage in battle (Numbers 10, Joshua 6, Judges 6-7), or simply as a reminder of being commissioned by God.

The four winds, from one end of heaven to another is an obvious picture of the whole world.

All together, a possible 70-AD related perspective of this verse is, in context:

v30 - God comes and judges Jerusalem through Rome, the biggest and most vivid judgment being the destruction of the temple. This is a visible declaration, "The temple is destroyed. Worship, salvation, religion is no longer done here." This is why God condemned the temples and it's leaders Monday of Passion week, (Mark 11-12). This is what the book of Hebrews is in large part about, "Jesus gave us a better ministry, a better mediator, a better sacrifice, a better connection in the New Covenant."
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
v31 With the decisive blow to the Old Covenant, via the fall of the temple, God commissions His messenger to gather the elect, in other words, believers in Jesus are to fulfill the Great Commission and preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth, in doing so "gathering" the elect into the spiritual temple / house of God - His body.

So is verse 31 figurative? Probably more literal than figurative in how I read it, even in that interpretation of that verse. I hope this was helpful to see an alternative understanding of that verse.
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
- II CORINTHIANS 5:21 ESV

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