Why get emotional about eschatology?

End Times
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remade
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Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by remade » Tue May 02, 2017 12:53 pm

I grew up under parents who were big Left Behind fans, and little did I know (or as it turns out, little did my parents know) that we assumed dispensationalism as the only view viable for eschatology. (I don't think any of us knew what those two big terms were, nor that we were believers in dispensationalism).

Truly, I was always confused, and kept my distance from the book of Revelation even when I grew up old enough, and was reading the Scriptures regularly.

I felt called into ministry, and began taking courses via online a Bible College of the denomination in which I was a part of. Come to find out, both the "systematic theology" and the general course I took on Johanine literature taught, thankfully, the four views of eschatology when discussing Revelation. The systematic theology, "Grace, Faith, and Holiness" by H. Ray Dunning, actually included an appendix that passionately dissuaded readers from dispensationalism.

Through those courses, and through friends, I headed towards holding ammillennial / semi-preterist views of eschatology. Meanwhile, thanks to the likes of Chuck Missler, and the books that my dad read in the 70s (The Late Great Planet Earth, etc.), he kept to his dispensational views. When I tried to show him what I was learning in the Scriptures, he started emotionally responding to what I was showing him.

I've been preaching in a series on Mark - verse by verse through the entire book. I knew and feared some reactions upon coming on Mark 13 (The Olivet Discourse). Sure enough, the first sermon I shared with my dad via online, he responded, "That's a little controversial, we'll have to agree to disagree). I guess what confuses me, that people who subscribe to dispensationalism, I thought also respect LITERAL readings of the Scriptures, and as I presented Mark 13, I brought Mark 13:30 into context in which Jesus implicitly states that "ALL these things will not take place until THIS GENERATION passes." And showed plainly how history has been fulfilled the verses we began studying (I made it to through verses 1-8 in the first sermon). Some, if not most objective viewers I would think call this literal, plain interpretation.

THIS LONG STORY summarized: my question, as my subject is, is why eschatology often an emotional thing for adherents? Is this the case for adherents to all eschatologies, or just for dispensationalists, or are some eschatologies more prone to have emotional adherents that almost brand other views and view-adherents as heretics? I do recall that many of the reformed historicists branded other views as heresy, and saw other views as attempts to move away from the reformed / historicist view of the Catholic church in Revelation. Is it a eschatology issue, or is it a personal issue to make this grouping of theology an emotional adherence and just an intellectual adherence?

Thoughts?

My first sermon on Mark 13:1-8
http://wfcidaho.sermon.net/main/main/20920224
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
- II CORINTHIANS 5:21 ESV

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jeremiah
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by jeremiah » Wed May 03, 2017 11:54 am

Hey brother,

I think the reason is simple. If a dispensationalist has never even heard the term which labels his belief, he then quite naturally equates the importance of his 'eschatological' beliefs with those of how one is saved or the nature of God himself. In other words, it is a defining aspect of Christianity in his mind. If at best he only knows of the heated debate of the pre, mid, or post trib rapture question, and someone comes along saying well I don't believe the bible teaches any of that stuff, then that someone can only be seen as a bible denying heretic. There is a spectrum of a dispensationalist's reaction as with anybody responding to any "new to me" information of course, but I think this is the basic mechanism you're watching and wondering about.

And yes I think this reaction of sorts can be seen in not only other views of the end times a la dispensationalism, but you also see it in eschatology proper. How many stories of uncharitable reactions of suspicion have you heard of when someone tells their fellow christians they are looking into whether or not the bible teaches an unending torture in Hell for the unrepentant? I know the first time I heard about a different view of Revelation or the nature of Hell to name a couple, my reaction was the h word. Years later, I now wonder if such a view of the final judgement is actually a long tolerated slander against the character of God. But I don't think our varied emotional reactions to challenging ideas has so much to do with what catagory of theology it may fall under, but more so with the seedbed these challenging ideas fall into. If we 'grew up' in our faith in an environment where strict and compulsory uniformity to a particular Christian code was typical, then I think we're more likely to react with suspicion. If we were fortunate to be in an environment where robust faithfulness to Jesus and scripture was paramount yet with an un-fearful awareness of the obvious diversity of thought in Christ's church since the beginning then we're more likely to react with grace. And as always there is a spectrum of environments in which our faith in Jesus started and grows.

Grace and peace to you
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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jasonmodar
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by jasonmodar » Thu May 04, 2017 11:40 am

Hi remade,

The first time I was introduced to non-dispensational eschatology was around 5-6 years ago. It was a prophecy class that the pastor of the church I attended was teaching. I remember walking into the first meeting and thinking to myself “He better not try and convince me that dispensational eschatology is wrong.” Of course I wasn’t even aware of terms like “dispensational” and “eschatology” but that was the gist of my thought process.

Fast forward 5-6 years and I look back on that line of thinking with a great deal of embarrassment. Thank God I didn’t voice those thoughts and was quickly interested in and convinced by my pastor’s presentation of preterism. Saved me the embarrassment of sticking my foot in my mouth.

My understanding 5-6 years ago was that the “Left Behind” theology was thoroughly biblical and anything else was a threat and should be shunned. Eschatology is hardly the only theological topic that I’ve had these “threatening thoughts” about. Ministries like Steve’s have GREATLY helped me be more open minded and far less threatened to ideas that challenge my preconceived thoughts about theological topics.

All of that to say that my emotional reaction to non-dispensational theology was driven by fear. I was thin-skinned and clearly not confident in my understanding and reasoning. I don’t know if this would explain things for the masses but it’s my testimonial.

Timios
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by Timios » Thu May 04, 2017 12:02 pm

remade wrote:I thought also respect LITERAL readings of the Scriptures, and as I presented Mark 13, I brought Mark 13:30 into context in which Jesus implicitly states that "ALL these things will not take place until THIS GENERATION passes." And showed plainly how history has been fulfilled the verses we began studying (I made it to through verses 1-8 in the first sermon). Some, if not most objective viewers I would think call this literal, plain interpretation.
I have read a commentary on this verse that says that the Greek word for "generation" can refer to people of the same stock or family, or even of a whole nation. Could the word "generation" here refer to the whole Jewish nation?

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backwoodsman
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by backwoodsman » Thu May 04, 2017 3:13 pm

Timios wrote:I have read a commentary on this verse that says that the Greek word for "generation" can refer to people of the same stock or family, or even of a whole nation. Could the word "generation" here refer to the whole Jewish nation?
That usually comes from dispensationalists, as it has to be true for their eschatology to work. I think such ideas get a foothold in part because Strong's definitions are so simplistic and over-concise that they can be bent to say just about anything, and many folks never look any further than Strong's.

But Greek scholars like Thayer, Robertson, and Nicoll (Expositor's Greek New Testament) all go with the ordinary meaning of "generation". It seems to me safer to go with them, than with those whose theology depends on an unnatural meaning of the word that one would never get to without first buying into their belief system.

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steve
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by steve » Thu May 04, 2017 3:18 pm

"Race" would not be the most natural meaning. Seeing "generation" in its generally accepted meaning fits the context better, in two ways:

1) The larger context of Matthew's Gospel, where the term "this generation" is found on Jesus' lips five or six times. In all the previous times, "this generation" refers to those living at that time, and could not speak of the Jewish race as a whole;

2) In the more immediate context of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus is answering two questions from the disciples—the first is "When?" and the second is "What sign will there be?" They are asking more detail on the prediction Jesus made about the temple's destruction. In the course of the discourse Jesus answers both questions: A) When?" "This generation will not pass before..." B) "What sign?" "When you see the abomination of desolation..."

If Jesus means "this race will not pass away..." He is addressing a question they did not ask, and avoids the one they did ask. Since we know that the fulfillment of the prediction happened 40 years later, whereas the end of the Jewish race did not occur anywhere near to, nor in association with, that event, it seems that Jesus (as a good carpenter) "nailed it" in saying that it would happen before the expiration of His own generation. There would be no reason to comment that the Jewish race would not become extinct before that time, since the question of the duration of the race never was brought up in the question, nor in any part of the answer. It would be a wild card thrown in gratuitously.

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remade
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by remade » Thu May 04, 2017 4:34 pm

Timios wrote:

I have read a commentary on this verse that says that the Greek word for "generation" can refer to people of the same stock or family, or even of a whole nation. Could the word "generation" here refer to the whole Jewish nation?
Commentaries aside, I would encourage people to read the Bible as is - again, commentaries ASIDE.

Mark 13:1-4 and Mark 13:30 tells us rather plainly what time-frame Jesus is talking about. As backwoodsman said, if we were concerned about putting in a pre-accepted belief system into the Bible, then let's break out the commentaries. If we're concerned with what Jesus said, and would rather take a plain, literal reading and understanding of the Olivet Discourse as presented to us by Jesus a la Mark, then let's read Mark 13, and accept Mark 13:1-4 and verse 30 at plain value as to WHAT Jesus is talking about, and WHEN Jesus is talking referring to it.

All that to say, I think Jesus means "this generation," how we mean, "this generation." Which it is understood any other time easily by readers when Jesus says it quite literally and plainly just like we say and mean "this generation." (See Matt 11:16; 12:41-45; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 7:31; Luke 11:29-51; 17:25) It is only in the Olivet Discourse people scratch their heads and apparently suddenly lose their understanding of the phrase, "this generation." See above verses for a quick refresher of what it means.

Sorry for the sarcasm. I could've worded all that better.
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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PR
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by PR » Thu May 04, 2017 5:21 pm

Doesn't this address when?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Phil

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steve
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by steve » Thu May 04, 2017 8:50 pm

That verse addresses a prerequisite, but gives no idea of time. It does not answer "when will these things be?" It does address chronology of events, but does not address the timeframe as does "this generation will not pass..."

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remade
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Re: Why get emotional about eschatology?

Post by remade » Thu May 04, 2017 10:05 pm

PR wrote:Doesn't this address when?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Phil
Interesting thing, as I am addressing this very statement in my sermon this coming week. I will merely say look up Acts 2:5; Colossians 1:5-6 and 23.

;-)
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
- II CORINTHIANS 5:21 ESV

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