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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:51 pm
by darinhouston
Sean wrote:I makes no sense to me why someone would live in this age for Christ, which is difficult because you have to die to yourself and receive little if any benefit from doing so, and then later (after our bodies are glorified and we are no longer tempted) we would freely choose to fall. Do we think that life will really suck with God or what? Why, after receiving our reward would we turn around and forfeit it? That just doesn't make sense to me. We will still have free will but we will be doing what we are doing right now by our own choice, serving God. Only without the world, flesh and devil trying to stop us. With nothing against us, why would we choose other than what we have already chosen?
But, didn't the angels fall in a similar situation?
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:07 am
by Sean
darinhouston wrote:
But, didn't the angels fall in a similar situation?
I don't see how this is even remotely similar. We are saved from our sinful condition into righteousness. A painful process. We know and have experienced a life of sinful behavior. Angels that fell started from a position of righteousness just as Adam and Eve did. They never knew sin as we do, nor did they know what kind of damage it can cause to the entirety of creation. They (both angels and Adam/Eve) walked with God and began in a position of right standing before Him. They were innocent. They did not know anything else. We do. Who knows, maybe that's why God is doing this. So we can learn.
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:22 am
by darinhouston
Sean wrote:darinhouston wrote:
But, didn't the angels fall in a similar situation?
I don't see how this is even remotely similar. We are saved from our sinful condition into righteousness. A painful process. We know and have experienced a life of sinful behavior. Angels that fell started from a position of righteousness just as Adam and Eve did. They never knew sin as we do, nor did they know what kind of damage it can cause to the entirety of creation. They (both angels and Adam/Eve) walked with God and began in a position of right standing before Him. They were innocent. They did not know anything else. We do. Who knows, maybe that's why God is doing this. So we can learn.
Is there something biblical that teaches us this about angels? It seems they at least observe our sin and its effects. Besides, knowledge of sin and its effects isn't what caused Adam & Eve to sin -- God Himself told him not to eat from the tree lest they die. They already knew this without the Tempter, so why would Satan be necessary as a tempter if this supposed ignorant innocence is what "let" the angels fall.
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:42 am
by Sean
darinhouston wrote:
Is there something biblical that teaches us this about angels?
I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if my assertion that angels started from a position of righteousness? I'm only looking at two options.
1.God made angels and they were good, just as God made man and called that good. Since we read that angels sinned and are being kept for the judgment tells me that they didn't start out fallen.
2. God made angels fallen. Since Jude says: "the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day" it would seem some of them "fell". So I don't think this option is correct. Nor do we read of fallen angels being redeemed anytime in the future. We only read of their impending judgment.
I did not mean to suggest they all fell. Nor can we know when they "failed to keep their proper domain".
My point was only that angels don't go from fallen to regenerated to glorified (as Christians do). We only read of "fallen" angels reserved for judgment and the "elect" angels. With man we find all are in need of redemption through Christ. This, to me, is a different experience than what little we know of angels. So to suggest that we might fall because angels did is apples and oranges.
darinhouston wrote: It seems they at least observe our sin and its effects.
Yes, they do. By knowing sin I don't mean knowing about sin or even seeing it but experiencing it like we do. I can tell my children not to stick their finger on the stove but that does not have the same impact as touching it yourself.
When did the ones who "did not keep their proper domain" fall? Before man was created or after? I don't know. Nor do I know if the angels who did not fall will ever fall (or if there are angels still "falling" today).
My point is only that we can't assume angels who fall were in "a similar position" to that of glorified saints in the eternal state. That's what I don't see as remotely similar. For this to be a similar position, it would have to be proven that angels fell and were redeemed/changed/glorified and then fell again. Since that is the position we are discussing. Isn't the question: Can man rebel after glorification? Fallen men who were changed inwardly and will be changed outwardly into the image of Christ are different from angels who are never said to have been changed. We only read of two classes of angels: "elect" and "fallen".
darinhouston wrote:Besides, knowledge of sin and its effects isn't what caused Adam & Eve to sin -- God Himself told him not to eat from the tree lest they die. They already knew this without the Tempter, so why would Satan be necessary as a tempter if this supposed ignorant innocence is what "let" the angels fall.
Apparently Satan was necessary since God placed him there. Otherwise why keep him around? But to directly answer your question: "why would Satan be necessary" I have no idea.
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:09 am
by StephenPatrick
The same could go for "beginning" couldn't it ? "In the beginning" and "from the beginning" could both be referring to creation of our world/universe and it's possible that the devil was created before the world/universe and wasn't a murderer from "before" the beginning, isn't it? What does seem clear, though, is that he was a murderer (and therefore corrupt) before man's first sin/fall. We just don't know a lot about before or beyond that limited creation account.
Very interesting topic.
I'm not too sure if this question belong in this thread or not.
But, John 8:44 says, "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
My question:
If Satan was a murderer from the beginning, before man's first sin/fall, who or what did he murder before he tempted Eve? Another angel? Some other created being? Or is Jesus dealing with a "heart" issue. Or is he talking about Cain killing his brother since that is the beginning of, or first murder?
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:40 pm
by Paidion
Sean wrote:Apparently Satan was necessary since God placed him there. Otherwise why keep him around?
Why keep Hitler, and Stalin, and Saddam Hussein around so long? Were they necessary?
What does seem clear, though, is that he was a murderer (and therefore corrupt) before man's first sin/fall.
It doesn't seem clear to me at all that Satan was a murderer before man's first sin. What Scriptural facts make such a thought clear to you?
He was a murderer from the beginning of creation, all right. He murdered Adam and Eve, by tempting Eve. For in the day they rebelled, and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they began to die.
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm
by NORTH
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:06 pm
by Theophilus
I'm not sure if there are any verses that depict spirits sinning apart from involvement with the flesh. What would sin look like in the spirit realm without a body? In the Book of Daniel, Gabriel(?) was "withstood" by the prince of the kingdom of Persia until Michael came.
Also, Satan and the demons are so closely related to the concept of sin that I'm not sure that we can define sin as existing outside of their inclusion (the thing that caused Satan's first sin). If a virus causes an illness, does it make sense to ask how that illness came to the virus?
I'm also not certain that what we consider free will is actually free will as many understand it. Can Satan control his own thoughts? The LORD is sovereign and He is the only one with true "free" will. Satan's activities are ultimately constrained by God.
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:24 pm
by Eli
Can you please expand upon your meanings of the terms “my fallen nature” and “Worldliness?”
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:29 pm
by mattrose
By 'my fallen nature' I mean simply the fact that I am part of corrupted creation. I have sinful desires.
By 'worldliness' I mean simply peer pressure. The world, being corrupt, generally leads me away from God's desire for me.
To say it more practically.... suppose I was flipping through the channels on my TV and I came across a partially nude woman. Now, it was not a sin to stumble upon such an image, but in that moment a number of factors comes into play tempting me to keep watching. First, my flesh, being fallen, may desire to be stimulated (especially if it is not yet ruled by God's Spirit in me). Second, the very fact that such a thing is on TV means the world finds it OK, and that might play a role in leading me to justify watching for a few minutes, at least. Lastly, the 'thought' that the world must think this is OK, so maybe its OK for me too, probably is a temptation from satan. So... my fallen nature, the world, and the devil all play a role trying to get me to do something I know I shouldn't do.
Of course, as a Christian, there are more powerful forces working against such a decision (to linger on that channel). I have a new nature which desires to please God and is probably repulsed that such a thing would be on TV and may even consider cancelling the cable because of it. I have positive peer pressure in the church, knowing that I'd be letting down my brothers and sisters in the Lord to stoop to this sort of trap. Third, I have the Holy Spirit in me, much more powerful than Satan, giving me the strength and guidance to turn the channel (or turn the TV off completely!).