Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

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mattrose
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Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by mattrose » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:34 pm

If the traditional view of Satan (a good angel gone bad) is correct, how is his fall explained? This is a question I've had since my early teenage years. I even asked it on the previous forum and Steve replied that it was a solid question to ask the traditional view camp. But I'd like to hear someone with the traditional view of Satan respond thoughtfully.

When I sin, I'm using my free will PROVOKED BY 1 of 3 things
1) My fallen nature
2) Wordliness/peer-pressure
3) A tempter (ie. satan or demons)

When Eve sinned, she made a free will PROVOKED, but did NOT have #1 or #2, as I understand it. But she did have #3 (in the form of the serpent and, to a lesser extent, in the tree itself).

But when Satan (supposedly) sinned. He did not have #1, #2 OR #3 present, as far as I can tell. So excluding pressure from within (fallen nature) and pressure from without (the world and/or a tempter), why would Satan have made such a stupid free will decision?

The only answer I've ever heard is 'free will' but I'm already admitting free will into the equation and am still very unsatisfied. This casts major doubt, for me, on the tradition view of Satan.

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Allyn
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Allyn » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:25 pm

mattrose wrote:If the traditional view of Satan (a good angel gone bad) is correct, how is his fall explained? This is a question I've had since my early teenage years. I even asked it on the previous forum and Steve replied that it was a solid question to ask the traditional view camp. But I'd like to hear someone with the traditional view of Satan respond thoughtfully.

When I sin, I'm using my free will PROVOKED BY 1 of 3 things
1) My fallen nature
2) Wordliness/peer-pressure
3) A tempter (ie. satan or demons)

When Eve sinned, she made a free will PROVOKED, but did NOT have #1 or #2, as I understand it. But she did have #3 (in the form of the serpent and, to a lesser extent, in the tree itself).

But when Satan (supposedly) sinned. He did not have #1, #2 OR #3 present, as far as I can tell. So excluding pressure from within (fallen nature) and pressure from without (the world and/or a tempter), why would Satan have made such a stupid free will decision?

The only answer I've ever heard is 'free will' but I'm already admitting free will into the equation and am still very unsatisfied. This casts major doubt, for me, on the tradition view of Satan.
Can't prove it but I actually believe that Satan was created the type of creature he is. I think it has to be that way for Good to be identified as such. Without a measuring method how is it known that good is good? Actually, it seems, God and Satan had a very good working relationship - "Have you considered my servant, Job?"

I think Satan was created with his bent towards evil for the purpose of the Big Picture we find established in Christ Jesus.

Just some thoughts and probably wierd ones at best. :roll:

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Paidion
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Paidion » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:55 pm

Matt wrote:When I sin, I'm using my free will PROVOKED BY 1 of 3 things
1) My fallen nature
2) Wordliness/peer-pressure
3) A tempter (ie. satan or demons)
What is your authority for this thesis, Matt? Or is it just a personal hypothesis?

James wrote:

... each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death. James 1:14,15

According to the traditional view of Satan, he was lured by his own desire! Lucifer or "the Day Star" is regarded as a high angel who fell through his desire to exalt himself and to be like God.

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ Isaiah 14:12-14

So it would appear that free will are personal desire are sufficient to bring forth sin.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Homer » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:11 pm

It appears Satan never fell - he was always the way he is:
John 8:44 (New King James Version)

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

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TK
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by TK » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:09 pm

Could God have created an evil being- who had no choice but to be evil?

That seems to be quite a stretch.

TK

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steve
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by steve » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:19 pm

Could God have created an evil being- who had no choice but to be evil?
When we ask what God could or could not have created, we are, I think, raising the question of what God might wish to have created, rather than His ability to create whatever He might wish.

If God wished to have such a being as Satan, He certainly could (and would be entitled to) create one.

On the other hand, if God did not wish for such a being to exist, then why does the devil exist? Is God incapable of dispensing with Him? And why has He not done so long ago?

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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by mattrose » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:05 am

Allyn,
Yours is the alternative view I am considering.

Paidion,
It is a personal hypothesis, though I think it is based on Scripture. The James reference is, it seems to me, a statement in the context of a fallen, flesh driven, world. The 'desire' spoken of, there, seems to be an established and fallen desire. Further, I don't agree that Isaiah 14 is even about Satan. Nevertheless, given the traditional view, your answer is the only possible answer to the question, so I appreciate you giving it :)

Homer,
Even as someone very open to the alternative view of Satan, i don't find the John passage about satan in the 'beginning' very compelling. I think it is just as easy to interpret it as referring to some 'fall' around the time of creation as it is to interpret it as his God-given nature.

TK,
The view I am considering is not that God created an evil being, but that God created a tester. A test isn't an evil thing (though from some perspectives it appears as such). I am undecided as to whether this tester performed his role consistently throughout time OR if he became corrupted along the way.

Steve,
Certainly God does see a purpose to having Satan around (no matter what view of satan's origin one takes). Hypothetically, let's say the non-traditional view of satan is true and that he began as a tester. Do you think that he's been faithful to his God-given role OR that he became corrupted along the way.

I theorize that the satan was created as a tester. And he performed that role well. But the more humanity failed the test, the more pride in his role began to form. He started to want them to fail. And desired to control them. God allows him to remain (as a corrupted tester) because testing is still filling a role. What was originally meant as a test to be passed (from God's perspective) ended up being a temptation to fail (from Satan's perspective). But as the satan tempts, God is still testing, and so the role is still worthwhile.

What do you think of this theory?

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Allyn
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Allyn » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:22 am

Yes, Matt, I like that theory.

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Paidion
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Paidion » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:17 am

When God created the physical world, after each day of creation, He was pleased and "saw that it was good." We read that when He had completed the six days of creation:

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. Gen 1:31

Do you suppose that when God having created Lucifer was pleased and that He saw that Lucifer was also good? Or did He create Satan as Satan and was pleased that he was evil? As I see it, the former is true. All that God created was good, including man. But man through his own rebellion became evil, and his nature became corrupt. The same with Lucifer.

God does not create moral evil.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?

Post by Paidion » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:46 am

Another thought that came to my mind.

If God created Satan as an evil being to tempt people, will He then annihilate him when His use for him is over? This doesn't sound like God. If Satan has faithfully served God over the millenia by carrying out His intentions, then why would God not reward him after his work was completed?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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