"This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Angels & Demons
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TK
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"This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by TK » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:16 pm

Matt. 17:14-20 (NKJV)

14 And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. 16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.”
17 Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.” 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”
20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.
99% of the people who read this think that Jesus is saying that this certain kind of demon that was tormenting this boy only comes out if a person has fasted and prayed. Of course, the 99% might be right.

But a while back I heard someone teach that Jesus was not talking about the type of demon that responded to prayer and fasting, but was rather referring to the kind of UNBELIEF that the disciples were exhibiting. In context, Jesus appears to be teaching the disciples about their unbelief, not the type of demon.

The argument goes something like this: The disciples, prior to this, had had some success in casting our demons. So it wasnt that they didnt have faith; after all they had seen other miracles etc. But something about they way this particular demon manifested "freaked them out." In other words, what they were experiencing in their flesh countered their faith-- i.e. they had unbelief.

Prayer and fasting counter this fleshly type of unbelief. When we pray, we are speaking to an unseen God who lo and behold answers our prayers. When we fast, we deny the senses which teaches us to overcome and not cave in to what our senses are telling us. In other words, a lifestyle of prayer and fasting increases our faith, or said alternatively, decreases our unbelief.

To be quite honest, I don't think it makes a lot of sense that certain kinds of demons only respond to prayer and fasting. If the name of Jesus and faith in his name aren't sufficient, I am not sure how prayer and fasting would make a difference. But prayer and fasting may counter unbelief, which in turn increases our ability to be victorious in spiritual warfare.

Thoughts?

TK

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Allyn
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Re: "This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by Allyn » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:14 pm

I'm with the 99%.

It doesn't make sense to say this type of unbelief does not come out without fasting and prayer.

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look2jesus
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Re: "This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by look2jesus » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:36 pm

I thought of the story in Daniel, where Gabriel told Daniel that he had been withstood by the Prince of Persia for 21 days. I'm pretty sure that there was no lack of faith in Gabriel, which seems to me to indicate that he was up against an unusually tough customer...perhaps. This doesn't mean, of course, that unbelief is never a problem, but neither would I say that anytime a christian has difficulty in dealing with demons that the problem is unbelief.
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowlege and discernment...Philippians 1:9 ESV

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TK
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Re: "This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by TK » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:38 am

Allyn wrote:
It doesn't make sense to say this type of unbelief does not come out without fasting and prayer.
I agree that it makes more sense if it read: "You need to deal with your unbelief by prayer and fasting more than you do."

Of couse, Jesus did not speak it in English anyways.

Perhaps one of our greek scholars on here an enlighten us as to what the original text really says, or means.

look2Jesus wrote:
This doesn't mean, of course, that unbelief is never a problem, but neither would I say that anytime a christian has difficulty in dealing with demons that the problem is unbelief.
I perosnally believe that you can have faith and unbelief at the same time. I believe that is exactly what the disciples' problem was in this episode. I think James called this being double-minded.

TK

steve7150
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Re: "This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by steve7150 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:29 pm

21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.




My ESV bible does not contain this verse.

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Suzana
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Re: "This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by Suzana » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:09 pm

steve7150 wrote:21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.




My ESV bible does not contain this verse.
The ESV Bible Online does have a footnote about it:

"17:20 Some manuscripts insert verse 21: But this kind never comes out except by prayer and fasting"

They don't specify which ones, but surely the manuscripts would be reputable if so many other translations include this verse.
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steve
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Re: "This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by steve » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:24 pm

The textus receptus includes it. The Alexandrian text does not.

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Paidion
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Re: "This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by Paidion » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:44 pm

Although the verse may not have been included in the original manuscript, a similar statement is made in Mark 9:29, except fasting is not included:

Mark 9:29 And He said to them, "This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer."
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: "This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by Homer » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:50 pm

Hi TK,

The scene in Matthew 17:14-23 is abruptly introduced by Matthew but Mark (Mark 9:14ff) informs us that when Jesus, Peter, James, and John came down from the mountain they found a large crowd arguing with the other disciples. According to Luke (17:14ff) they had spent the night on the mountain. Apparently the crowd was arguing with the nine disciples left behind, perhaps jeering them for their failure to cast out the demon.

It seems odd that they failed to cast out the demon; Jesus had given them authority over demons and they had succeeded in casting many demons out before (see Matthew 10:1, 8 and Mark 6:7-13). In Matthew 17:20 Jesus attributes their failure to a problem with their faith. The KJV and NKJV have "unbelief", translated from late manuscripts that have the Greek apistian which means unbelieving, untrustworthy, or infidel. It seems unlikely Jesus thought that of the apostles. The NASB and NIV use older Greek manuscripts which have the Greek word oligopistian translated "little faith" or "littleness of your faith" which seems much more likely to be what Jesus meant, especially since at least four other times He had chided them as "little faiths".

As Steve7150 has pointed out, Matthew 17:21 is highly suspect as being a scribe's addition to the text. The question must be asked as to why fasting would be necessary to cast out a demon? Would it be necessary also for healing the sick, raising the dead, and cleansing lepers as Jesus had previously given them authority to do?
Would they, when asked to cast out a demon, reply that since they had breakfast that day they would have to wait until at least the next day so they could fast first? Seems odd to me.

I think if we take what we find in Matthew and Mark we get an idea of what their problem was. I think since they had success before, they expected to do so on this occasion, and were surprised at their failure. Perhaps they treated the gift Jesus gave them like a gift of magic where if they said the right words, success was guaranteed. But Jesus indicated they had failed to pray. If we consider Acts 9:36-42, where Peter first prayed and then raised Tabitha from the dead, I believe we see what Jesus had in mind - a faith that prays and does not take God for granted.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

God bless, Homer

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look2jesus
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Re: "This Kind Does Not Go Out..."

Post by look2jesus » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:21 am

Hello Homer,

Your post reminded me of the episode after Jericho, when the children of Israel went against Ai. I see parallels there that seem to possibly mimic some of what the Apostles experienced in this case. There seemed to be some presumption in their (Israel's) case also, and they had failed to seek God's will in the matter until they were humiliated in the battle. A little humility goes a long way. Thanks for the post.

l2j
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowlege and discernment...Philippians 1:9 ESV

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