Where did demons come from?
Where did demons come from?
I have heard some people recently talk about something called a "pre-adamic race." Supposedly, God destroyed this pre-adamic race and started over with Adam and the spirits of that race now roam the earth as demons. I was wondering if anyone knew about that idea and where that would be found in Scripture.
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Demons
The Bible does not tell us the "origin" of satan or demons. Some people point to Isaiah 14 (which is about the king of Babylon) or Ezekiel 28 (which is about the king of Tyre) but you really have to read a lot into the text to say these are about Satan. Some people will also go to Revelation 12 and say that the tail of the dragon sweeping away 1/3 of the stars means one-third of the angels fell with Satan. Same problem; you have to read a lot into the text to get that, and you have to start with the assumption that Satan "fell." No other witness in the Biblical accounts can substantiate this, though some of this mythological thinking does show up in the apocryphal writings.
God did not tell us the origin of Satan or the demons. Perhaps it is not that important.
Be blessed.
God did not tell us the origin of Satan or the demons. Perhaps it is not that important.
Be blessed.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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I agree with what Larry has written (above).
I might add that the idea of a "pre-adamic human race" is a corrolary of the so-called "gap theory" of Genesis one. The idea is that there was an unmentioned gap of indeterminate length (possibly billions of years) between the first two verses of Genesis one. Thus, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (v.1), then came this lengthy gap, following which "the earth was [became] formless and void..."(v.2).
This view has allowed its advocates to shove into the "gap" many things, the timing of which had seemed confusing to them previously—e.g., dinosaurs, starlight travel, evolution and the formation of the geological column, etc. They also have speculated that the "fall of Lucifer" may have occurred during this gap, and that there was a pre-adamic humanity that was deceived by him, destroyed in a flood (Not Noah's; A previous one), and the six-day creation of Genesis 1:2ff occurred. Some of them also suggest that the present demons are the spirits of those of this previous human race, destroyed in that (unrecorded) judgment.
It is a fancy view with a lot of explanatory power. However, the things it explains do not need explaining. There is no compelling reason to believe that evolution occurred, that dinosaurs lived in some other era than that in which man and animals were created, that starlight must have required billions of years to get here, that the geological column took aeons to form, etc. Nor is there any need to find an appropriate time-frame for the fall of Satan, since no such fall is required in biblical theology. Nor is there any mention or hint in scripture of a preadamic human race...all is mythology.
The gap theory is unscriptural on its face. In Exodus 20:11, God states that the creation of the heavens and the earth (Gen.1:1) and the creation of everything else (Gen.1:2ff) all occurred within the same six-day period.
As Larry mentioned, the origin of demons is left a mystery unexplained in scripture. The traditional view that says they are fallen angels could be true, but the Bible does not identify them as such. Another view is that they are the tormented spirits of certain evil men and women who somehow bound themselves over to Satan in their lifetime and are now obliged unhappily to do his bidding after their deaths. This view may seem far-fetched, but there are good men who have held it, and the Bible neither affirms or denies it.
I might add that the idea of a "pre-adamic human race" is a corrolary of the so-called "gap theory" of Genesis one. The idea is that there was an unmentioned gap of indeterminate length (possibly billions of years) between the first two verses of Genesis one. Thus, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (v.1), then came this lengthy gap, following which "the earth was [became] formless and void..."(v.2).
This view has allowed its advocates to shove into the "gap" many things, the timing of which had seemed confusing to them previously—e.g., dinosaurs, starlight travel, evolution and the formation of the geological column, etc. They also have speculated that the "fall of Lucifer" may have occurred during this gap, and that there was a pre-adamic humanity that was deceived by him, destroyed in a flood (Not Noah's; A previous one), and the six-day creation of Genesis 1:2ff occurred. Some of them also suggest that the present demons are the spirits of those of this previous human race, destroyed in that (unrecorded) judgment.
It is a fancy view with a lot of explanatory power. However, the things it explains do not need explaining. There is no compelling reason to believe that evolution occurred, that dinosaurs lived in some other era than that in which man and animals were created, that starlight must have required billions of years to get here, that the geological column took aeons to form, etc. Nor is there any need to find an appropriate time-frame for the fall of Satan, since no such fall is required in biblical theology. Nor is there any mention or hint in scripture of a preadamic human race...all is mythology.
The gap theory is unscriptural on its face. In Exodus 20:11, God states that the creation of the heavens and the earth (Gen.1:1) and the creation of everything else (Gen.1:2ff) all occurred within the same six-day period.
As Larry mentioned, the origin of demons is left a mystery unexplained in scripture. The traditional view that says they are fallen angels could be true, but the Bible does not identify them as such. Another view is that they are the tormented spirits of certain evil men and women who somehow bound themselves over to Satan in their lifetime and are now obliged unhappily to do his bidding after their deaths. This view may seem far-fetched, but there are good men who have held it, and the Bible neither affirms or denies it.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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pre-adamic race
Genesis 1:2The earth was without form and void and darkness was on theface of the deep. Chaos is the hebrew word for darkness witch means waste and desolation. we know that God dose not creat waste and desolation. the word was in hebrew is translated in this verse to mean become. so this should read the eath become void and desalation become on the face of the deep.
isaiah 24:1 behold the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste,distorts its surface and scatters abroad its inhabitants. this is not talking about Noah becouse they were not scaterd abroad. this tells us that there were inhabitants befor Adam when the earth was empty and waste. Who were they? Lucifer and his fallen angels. Yes but we know they were not distroid so who else? a pre-adamic race. the unredeamable souls that are now evel spirits under satan camand.
the bible has many scripturs that speak on this but i don't have time to go in to all of them so i sugest learning to translate the kjv back in to hebrew and greek you will lean alot you didn't know was in the bible.
isaiah 24:1 behold the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste,distorts its surface and scatters abroad its inhabitants. this is not talking about Noah becouse they were not scaterd abroad. this tells us that there were inhabitants befor Adam when the earth was empty and waste. Who were they? Lucifer and his fallen angels. Yes but we know they were not distroid so who else? a pre-adamic race. the unredeamable souls that are now evel spirits under satan camand.
the bible has many scripturs that speak on this but i don't have time to go in to all of them so i sugest learning to translate the kjv back in to hebrew and greek you will lean alot you didn't know was in the bible.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Re: pre-adamic race
Actually, Isaiah 24 goes on to say:bkellyr wrote:Genesis 1:2The earth was without form and void and darkness was on theface of the deep. Chaos is the hebrew word for darkness witch means waste and desolation. we know that God dose not creat waste and desolation. the word was in hebrew is translated in this verse to mean become. so this should read the eath become void and desalation become on the face of the deep.
isaiah 24:1 behold the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste,distorts its surface and scatters abroad its inhabitants. this is not talking about Noah becouse they were not scaterd abroad. this tells us that there were inhabitants befor Adam when the earth was empty and waste. Who were they? Lucifer and his fallen angels. Yes but we know they were not distroid so who else? a pre-adamic race. the unredeamable souls that are now evel spirits under satan camand.
the bible has many scripturs that speak on this but i don't have time to go in to all of them so i sugest learning to translate the kjv back in to hebrew and greek you will lean alot you didn't know was in the bible.
Isa 24:5 The earth lies defiled under its inhabitants; for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa 24:6 Therefore a curse devours the earth, and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched, and few men are left.
This is clearly against Israel, because they have broken their covenant with God. At the time of Isaiah, there was only one nation that had a covenant with God. Nowhere is it stated that this is pre-Adam (since Adam is the first man) nor does the Bible teach a pre-Adamic race.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Steve,
What do you think I Tim 3:6 is referring to?
"not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil."
Also, Jude 6
"And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day?
What do you think I Tim 3:6 is referring to?
"not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil."
Also, Jude 6
"And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Grace and peace in Christ,
John
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Rom 8:14
John
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Rom 8:14
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The I Tim 3:6 question of:
"...the same condemnation as the devil."
SHOULD have been rendered:
"...the condemnation of the devil."
Translators with the "Satan was a fallen angel" bias asserted that one on us.
Credit to Steve for teaching me that.
God bless Steve's ministry.
"...the same condemnation as the devil."
SHOULD have been rendered:
"...the condemnation of the devil."
Translators with the "Satan was a fallen angel" bias asserted that one on us.
Credit to Steve for teaching me that.
God bless Steve's ministry.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hi John,
Some Partial-Pret Guy answered correctly on my behalf concerning 1 Tim.3:6.
The New King James translators were clearly influenced by the belief (long held in the circles in which I was raised) that Paul is here referring back to "the fall of Satan," and is warning that young believers prematurely thrust into positions of leadership may (like Satan) be puffed-up with pride, and come under God's judgment (condemnation) as Satan allegedly did.
It is a possible meaning of Paul's words, but not at all the likely one, in my judgment. The phrase "the condemnation of the devil" (which is Paul's actual phrase) could mean either "the same condemnation as the devil himself suffered" (as the NKJV suggests), or else "the condemnation brought upon the proud man by the devil."
The first rendering suggests that it is God's condemnation, and the second suggests that it is the devil's condemning activity. I think that the second is the more natural-sounding meaning of Paul's actual phrase, but there is more than intuition to support this choice. The following verse ends with a similar phrase, "the snare of the devil." Here, the phrase, "of the devil," clearly identifies the devil as the originator, not the victim, of the snare.
That the two phrases ("the condemnation of the devil" and "the snare of the devil") are found in such close proximity to each other suggests (to my mind) that the phrase "of the devil" makes the devil the originator in both sentences...hence, "the condemnation of the devil" would mean the condemnation brought by the devil.
As for Jude 6 (and 2 Peter 2:4, which is almost identical to it), many interpreters think that this refers to the "sons of God" (Gen.6ff) leaving their proper domain in order to marry human women. This would be a good theory. if on other grounds we decided that this is the meaning of Genesis 6, which I do not accept.
I think these references to angels that sinned probably refers to some otherwise unrecorded rebellion that occurred, possibly before the creation or the fall of man. This is a fairly standard view, but it may be incorrect, lacking, as it does, any clear support from other parts of scripture.
Matthew 25:41 mentions that the devil has "angels" who will share in his judgment (as does Revelation 12:7ff), but it does not necessarily identify Satan's angels as the same angels referred to in Jude or 2 Peter, and may even be using the word angelos in the more generic sense of [human] messengers, i.e., those who carry the devil's messege.
Notwithstanding this ambiguity, I will probably continue to believe what I do about these verses until a better explanation presents itself.
Some Partial-Pret Guy answered correctly on my behalf concerning 1 Tim.3:6.
The New King James translators were clearly influenced by the belief (long held in the circles in which I was raised) that Paul is here referring back to "the fall of Satan," and is warning that young believers prematurely thrust into positions of leadership may (like Satan) be puffed-up with pride, and come under God's judgment (condemnation) as Satan allegedly did.
It is a possible meaning of Paul's words, but not at all the likely one, in my judgment. The phrase "the condemnation of the devil" (which is Paul's actual phrase) could mean either "the same condemnation as the devil himself suffered" (as the NKJV suggests), or else "the condemnation brought upon the proud man by the devil."
The first rendering suggests that it is God's condemnation, and the second suggests that it is the devil's condemning activity. I think that the second is the more natural-sounding meaning of Paul's actual phrase, but there is more than intuition to support this choice. The following verse ends with a similar phrase, "the snare of the devil." Here, the phrase, "of the devil," clearly identifies the devil as the originator, not the victim, of the snare.
That the two phrases ("the condemnation of the devil" and "the snare of the devil") are found in such close proximity to each other suggests (to my mind) that the phrase "of the devil" makes the devil the originator in both sentences...hence, "the condemnation of the devil" would mean the condemnation brought by the devil.
As for Jude 6 (and 2 Peter 2:4, which is almost identical to it), many interpreters think that this refers to the "sons of God" (Gen.6ff) leaving their proper domain in order to marry human women. This would be a good theory. if on other grounds we decided that this is the meaning of Genesis 6, which I do not accept.
I think these references to angels that sinned probably refers to some otherwise unrecorded rebellion that occurred, possibly before the creation or the fall of man. This is a fairly standard view, but it may be incorrect, lacking, as it does, any clear support from other parts of scripture.
Matthew 25:41 mentions that the devil has "angels" who will share in his judgment (as does Revelation 12:7ff), but it does not necessarily identify Satan's angels as the same angels referred to in Jude or 2 Peter, and may even be using the word angelos in the more generic sense of [human] messengers, i.e., those who carry the devil's messege.
Notwithstanding this ambiguity, I will probably continue to believe what I do about these verses until a better explanation presents itself.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
After reading the replies here...What other options are there besides these:
Satan was a fallen angel or other creature?
Or...
Satan was created for the purpose that he is now?
Is there any other options? Can it be safe to conclude the former over the latter since God can't be the creator of sin?
Also, can't we conclude from these verses that Satan was an Angel?
2 Corinthians 11: 13-15 -
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
In these verses Paul is comparing evil men disguising themselves as good men and Satan disguising himeself as a good Angel. Why not say Satan disguises himself as a deceitful man? It would appear to me we can conclude he was a fallen Angel due to the comparisons being made. Anybody else have a different answer?
Satan was a fallen angel or other creature?
Or...
Satan was created for the purpose that he is now?
Is there any other options? Can it be safe to conclude the former over the latter since God can't be the creator of sin?
Also, can't we conclude from these verses that Satan was an Angel?
2 Corinthians 11: 13-15 -
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
In these verses Paul is comparing evil men disguising themselves as good men and Satan disguising himeself as a good Angel. Why not say Satan disguises himself as a deceitful man? It would appear to me we can conclude he was a fallen Angel due to the comparisons being made. Anybody else have a different answer?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Luke 16:17 - It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
Not to be argumentative, but those that believe in a gap place it betweeen "the beginning" and the six days. They see no problem with Ex. 20:11. Those that believe that the days were not consecutive have no problem with it either.Steve wrote:I agree with what Larry has written (above).The gap theory is unscriptural on its face. In Exodus 20:11, God states that the creation of the heavens and the earth (Gen.1:1) and the creation of everything else (Gen.1:2ff) all occurred within the same six-day period.
As far as where the demons come from, I've read a lot of different old-earth perspectives. Most of the ones I have read, including Hugh Ross (the most popular old-earth lightning rod around), believe that any pre-Adamic race was without souls.
Daniel
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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