Angels and Demons

[Sean]

When is it that Satan is to be crushed completely? It's at the end of the Old Covenant, when the Lord returned in judgement on Israel. Paul said here to the Roman Christians that it would happen "shortly". The Greek word translated "shortly"' is tachos. According to Arndt and Gingich Lexicon, tachos is used in the LXX and certain non-canonical writings to mean: "speed, quickness, swiftness, haste." Paul uses this same word in:

I think this is the weakness of the full-preterist position. It must fit many things into the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Allyn, please show me in scripture where the judgement on Israel is the defeat of satan.

It seems that scripture itself paints the picture that Jesus defeated satan on the cross. Even 1 Corinthians 15 says the power of sin is the law. The law which Christ changed with the new covenant (Heb 7:12).

Jesus said:

Matt 12:29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

Jesus tied up the strong man? How is it then that he encountered more demon possesed people then? Unless Jesus meant that in this one case He bound the strong man. Just as Paul could say "And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly".

Could we not as easily assert that only the Roman Christians feet would crush satan? No other Christians could be involved in this, on those whom Paul wrote to in this letter could or would participate in this action. Or could it be that Paul was stating that crushing satan under Rome's feet was like Jesus binding the strong man. This is a singular event in which satan was crushed, not his complete destruciton. In the OT we read of certain enemies of Israel who were destroyed, only to have them "re-appear" a few "chapters" later. Was the bible wrong there?

Jesus made this statement:

John 12:31"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

It was not 70AD when "the ruler of this world" was cast out. It was earlier than that. 70AD is judgement on Jerusalem, not satan. I don't see how this can be seen as the destruction of satan and his minions all together. And why tie our spiritual resurrection to this event? And what about the thousand years spoken of in Revelation? Where does that fit in the full preterist system?

So many questions, so little time to type.

[Allyn]

So many questions, so little time to type.

Hi Sean,

Yes, so many questions and some not having to do with this thread. I am sure I cannot answer all of your questions but I am willing to address all of them but I think you should start a thread for those questions. It could be an interesting exchange and maybe even profitable.

Full-Preterism, just as with any Christian point of view, develops from not only direct passages from Scripture but from concepts as well. I find that I do not agree with all full-prets, especially the calvinist variety, but we all have one thing in common and that is we believe the direct words of Jesus and those of His inspired writers. This is not to say you do not because I know that you do, but the difference is that those outside the preterist camp stop short for whatever reason.

I think it is a wrong understanding of full-preterism to say of us "I think this is the weakness of the full-preterist position. It must fit many things into the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD."

We are simply biblists who believe Jesus who said all things will find its end at that time. I find it amazing, for example, when I hear a partial preterist place an unnatural break in Matthew 24 by saying Jesus suddenly began to speak of a 2000 plus year time distance between the all things fullfilled and His 2nd coming. So by that standard of disagreement we could debate til the cows come home. Therefore I take my stand from the very words of Jesus and His inspired writers.

Thanks for the comments, Sean. I have always respected your ability with Scripture so maybe we can go a little further with this in other threads.

[Sean]

I started a thread under the Eschatology section to further the discussion in case anyone is interested.

[Suzana]

Demon possession did not exist before Jesus was born (Lk. 11:20b ASV). "And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore shall they be your judges. But if I by the finger of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you." Note the reasoning of the Lord. He is saying that they could know "the kingdom of God is come." How could they know? By the fact that demons were being cast out. If demon possession existed before the first century, then this statement is meaningless, or worst, it would mean Jesus was wrong.

The Lord was not wrong. Demon possession and their being cast out was new. The people even said that the power which Jesus manifested was "never so seen in Israel" (Matt. 9:32-33).

(my underline)

Hi Allyn,
I’m not sure that I follow your reasoning with these verses. To me it sounds like the kingdom of God was seen to have come because demons were being cast out, NOT that demon possession just started happening.

When you say that demon possession did not exist before Jesus was born, are you making a distinction b/w actual permanent possession as opposed to occasional activity or influence?

What would be your understanding of the experience of king Saul ?

1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Samuel 16:23 (KJV) And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

Or do you mean there was no demon possession within the people of Israel? Or, are you talking of the whole world? If so, how would you explain supernatural occurrences among the heathen? Whose power was being manifested, and how can you know demons wouldn’t possess people dedicated to serving these‘foreign gods’?

(Exo 7:10 MKJV) And Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh. And they did so, as Jehovah had commanded. And Aaron threw down his rod in front of Pharaoh and in front of his servants, and it became a snake.

(Exo 7:11 MKJV) Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers. And they, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts.

(Exo 7:12 MKJV) For each man threw down his rod, and they became snakes. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

[Allyn]

That's a proper observation, suzana. I certainly mis-spoke and actually agree with you that the casting out was for the purpose of showing the kingdom had arrived. Thanks.

[Suzana]