Tensions between the Old Testament and Jesus

[dizerner]

Jesus asked His disciples to obey HIS law, as He gave it as recorded in Matt 5, 6, and 7. He didn't ask the impossible. He EXPECTED His disciples to obey.

Have you cut off your hand and gouged out your eye? Have you annulled one of the least of the commands of the Law? Are you picking and choosing?

I fail to understand, in light of this passage, how anyone can insist that works of righteousness are unnecessary.

Maybe because we didn't stop reading Romans in chapter 2. Turns out that without grace nobody does the right thing.

[steve7150]

There's only one thing and one thing alone that justifies us, faith that Christ died and rose on our behalf.











Yes but the greek word for "faith" and "faithfulness" is the same word. So it seems to be faith initiating faithfulness.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

Is there someone claiming that we can be made righteous by works of the law? You quoted the verses I quoted to indicate Paul referring to works of the law. Why? Just to make the point that we cannot be justified or made righteous by works of the law? Did you think I quoted these verses to prove that we could?

Why? What I wrote clearly indicated that we can not be justified by works of THE Law of Moses. I had not one thought that you think we could; I know you do not think this. What I asked was whether we can be justified by keeping any other law, including the Law of Christ.

The question I am asking is not whether works are necessary, but what are they necessary for? Are they necessary as a means of justification or are good works a necessary evidence of a changed heart?

[dizerner]

It's the word necessary that I have a problem with, as that makes works salvific rather than evidentiary.

[Paidion]

It's the word necessary that I have a problem with, as that makes works salvific rather than evidentiary.

Which of the two did Paul teach according to the following passage from Romans 2?

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

[Paidion]

Have you cut off your hand and gouged out your eye?

Not literally. Christ didn't mean it literally, of course.

Have you annulled one of the least of the commands of the Law?

I don't keep the Mosaic law; I am a Christian.

Are you picking and choosing?

Yes, I have picked and chosen Messiah Jesus, because He first picked and chose me.

[Paidion]

Maybe because we didn't stop reading Romans in chapter 2. Turns out that without grace nobody does the right thing.

Baloney. Without grace even non-Christians frequently do the right thing. Christ has provided grace to enable us to do the right thing consistently, and to gradually become conformed into His image. Salvation is a process.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

If you consider the context I think you will see that the behavior Paul warns about in v. 8 is evidentiary. It is a result of the spiritual condition - a stubborn and unrepentant heart. Paul says that is the cause.

Romans 2:4-8 (NASB)

4. Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5. But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6. who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7. to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8. but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

[Paidion]

I have no problem with your statement, Homer. Yet the point remains that we are judged according to our works. Our works do indicate our character. "By their fruits you will know them." (Matt 7:16,20)