LimitedNegatives?

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mattrose
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by mattrose » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:03 pm

And here is what I'm handing out on Wednesday evening for our group to work through (I'll be sure to credit R. Foster, Steve, and others who participated in this thread!). I quote the NIV, which I found on a couple of occasions assumes the limited negatives and adds the words to make it so. In the bottom section I really want the group to think... so I included some that I would say fit the limited negative category and some that don't.
...............

‘Limited Negatives’ as Conversation Starters

A "limited negative" is a statement, usually (though not always) constructed as follows:

“Not A…but B”

But which actually means:

“Not only A…but also B” or, perhaps, “Not merely A…but primarily B”

Such an idiom becomes recognizable when it would be absurd or contradictory to take an absolute-sounding statement absolutely.

Obvious Examples (to prove the literary device exists)

Matthew 10:20
For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

John 12:44
Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life.

1 John 3:18
Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.


Obvious Counter-Examples (to provoke caution)

Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath.

3 John 1:11
Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good.

Colossians 3:19
Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

Ephesians 5:18
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.


12 Potential ‘Limited Negative’ Passages for our Consideration

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Matthew 6:19-20
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven.

Matthew 10:34
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword

Luke 12:4
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.

Luke 14:12-13
When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind.

John 1:13
Children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

John 7:24
Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”

John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Philippians 2:4
Not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

1 Peter 3:3-4
Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self

nancyer

Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by nancyer » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:35 pm

I would have read Steve's definition as not A, but B to mean not A, instead B (as opposed to not only A but also B) I would think the words not only and also would have to be included. I always thought the verse on not getting drunk on wine meant do NOT get drunk. Instead let yourself be filled with the Holy Spirit. Meaning don't excessively indulge in alchohol. Rather, spend your time with God, the Holy Spirit and studying scriptures, speading the gospel, and so on and so on.

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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by steve » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:31 pm

Hi Nancy,

Actually, I have not included Ephesians 5:18 in my list of limited negatives. I would not do so. Matt was saying that that verse is an example that is not a limited negative, though it follows the same construction.

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mattrose
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by mattrose » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:08 pm

Yes, thanks Steve. I included some examples under the heading Obvious Counter-Examples (to provoke caution) as to remind people that we should be careful in our application of the limited negative.

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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by mattrose » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:01 pm

I am going to be teaching this lesson again in a few days. I thought I'd share my votes (IN BOLD) on these 'potential' limited negatives

12 Potential ‘Limited Negative’ Passages for our Consideration

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
This one is quite interesting. Some of the teachers I've been listening to lately are treating this as an absolute negative. God, in their mind, is absolutely against sacrifice. I am not inclined, however, to go that far. I think the passage is not saying that sacrifice is bad, but God wants more than just sacrifice. He also (even primarily) wants us to be merciful. The 2nd half of the verse is up for debate too. I think God calls both the (self-assessed) righteous and sinners, but sinners are the ones most likely to respond.

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
I think this is a limited negative. The prayer is asking God not to ONLY bring us into testing, but to deliver us through it

Matthew 6:19-20
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven.
Certainly its not wrong to have some earthly possessions, but is this verse saying we should absolutely NOT store up treasures on earth or only that we should focus on treasures in heaven? I'd guess that it is absolutely against 'storing up' treasures on earth. Then, of course, the debate becomes how much it takes for something to count as 'storing up'.

Matthew 10:34
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword
To me, this is clearly a limited negative. Jesus did come to bring peace. But He also brought division.

Luke 12:4
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.
Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with experiencing the emotion of fear when faced with a killer, but it makes more sense to fear the one who decides our eternal fate

Luke 14:12-13
When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind.
Limited negative. It's ok to invite friends too

John 1:13
Children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
This passage is interpreted in a lot of different ways. I would say it is a limited negative

John 7:24
Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”
The word 'mere' is added (not in greek). I think its an absolute negative. Don't ever judge by appearances

John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends
Again, some of the teachers I listen to would say this is absolute... but I think it's negative. We are still servants, but now we are also sons.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
No, this is an absolute negative

Philippians 2:4
Not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
I'm not totally sure on this one. I don't think it's bad to look to your own interests. God loves you, so you should too. But I think since we naturally gravitate toward self-interest, we should primarily look to the interests of others

1 Peter 3:3-4
Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self
I take it as a limited negative. It's okay to look beautiful on the outside, but we should PRIMARILY seek to have a beautiful heart.

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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by mattrose » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:04 pm

Have we considered Galatians 4:7 (we may have, this thread is long and old)
"So you are no longer a slave, but God's child"
would really mean
"So you are no longer (only) a slave, but (also) God's child"

I think this is a rather obvious limited negative. But I'd imagine some would try to argue we simply are NOT slaves anymore. Just HOW they would argue this given the New Testament evidence is another story :)

Obviously very similar to John 15:15, which I know we DID discuss as a limited negative

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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by Paidion » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:46 pm

I just began to read the recent posts on this thread today. I was going to say that I didn't regard the following verse as a limited negative, and then I read your later post with the bolded addendum:
Matt wrote:Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
This one is quite interesting. Some of the teachers I've been listening to lately are treating this as an absolute negative. God, in their mind, is absolutely against sacrifice. I am not inclined, however, to go that far. I think the passage is not saying that sacrifice is bad, but God wants more than just sacrifice. He also (even primarily) wants us to be merciful. The 2nd half of the verse is up for debate too. I think God calls both the (self-assessed) righteous and sinners, but sinners are the ones most likely to respond.
Like the teachers to whom you've been listening lately, I believe that God does not desire sacrifice. The following passages seem to support this belief:

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. (Heb 10:5)
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. (Heb 10:6)

Sacrifice and offering you do not desire, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required.(Psalm 40:6)

"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices."But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ (Jeremiah 7:22,23)


So if Yahweh—God, didn't want sacrifices why did He instruct Moses exactly how to sacrifice to Him? I suggest that it was a concession to the Hebrew people. Such a concession was also granted when He instructed Samuel to choose Saul as king. God didn't want the Israelites to have a king, but they insisted on having a king, like other nations. He lamented their decision, saying, “You wouldn't have me to rule over you.” But since they insisted in having a king like all the other nations, He said in effect, “Okay. But your king will give you plenty of trouble.

In the case under consideration, the Israelites also wanted to sacrifice to their God, just as other nations sacrifice to theirs. So God granted it as a concession, but He didn't really want sacrifice; He wanted obedience.
Paidion

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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by steve » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:31 am

Hi Paidion,

I think the verses you have given in the above post could also be seen as limited negatives.

I am not aware that the Israelites wanted to offer sacrifices (leading God to accommodate their wishes). It seems to me that the Jews complained that the obligation to bring sacrifices was "a weariness" to them (Mal.1:13/Micah 6:7).

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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by Paidion » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:06 am

Steve wrote: I think the verses you have given in the above post could also be seen as limited negatives.
Yes, some of them could be so considered. But hardly this one:

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. (Heb 10:6)

So if God has no pleasure in animal sacrifices, would not this imply that He does not desire animal sacrifices?

‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’

Of course, He does desire the sacrifice of praise (Heb 13:15) and the living sacrifice of our bodies (Rom 12:1)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by mattrose » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:09 pm

Paidion wrote:Of course, He does desire the sacrifice of praise (Heb 13:15) and the living sacrifice of our bodies (Rom 12:1)
That's where I'm coming from. A sacrifice is a sacrifice. God does want us to make sacrifices to Him. The TYPE of sacrifice desired may have changed between covenants, but sacrifice is not a bad thing. Personally, I don't think God was ever opposed to the Old Testament sacrificial system. But God is opposed to continuing it beyond its purpose.

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