The miracle of salvation

[RV]

I recently was talking with someone regarding miracles. Why the absence of them.

Long story short, the guy I was chatting with said salvation is a miracle.

Here was his comment:

Do you not see the miracle in how salvation is able to transform dead people into live people so that they are even able to produce real fruitful good works?

I then went on to share a testimony of a Mormon I know and how his life was "transformed."

But... of course suddenly that wasn't a miracle.

I then went on to show that outwardly, there wasn't much difference between the Mormon I know and him as a "true christian."

They both are faithful to their wives, they both think the works of the flesh are sin. They both are great guys. They both pray and claim to have specific answers to prayers. They both claim that God has provided in amazing ways.

At the end of the day, I don't know what to think about it myself, other than I don't see how the "true christian's" experience is unique.

Your thoughts as I think through this stuff?

[Michelle]

RV, is this a fair summary of what you posted?

Your friend says that the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer making him more and more like Christ is a miracle — perhaps because it's a divine intervention. You claim that it is not miraculous because you have evidence regarding someone who you believe to be outside the body of Christ, and therefore, you believe, living without the aid of the Holy Spirit, who demonstrates in his life the same morality that the believer does.

[Paidion]

RV can answer for himself.

Nevertheless, I think he is saying that for many non-Christians there is no objective evidence for miracles. Pointing to the outward fruits of being delivered from sin will not do, since many people (perhaps by self-effort) have succeeded in reforming their lives, doing the same good things and avoiding the same evil things. I suspect that most of those who reform through self-effort will not be able to maintain their new standard.

My view is that there is objective evidence for miracles. But even if a person is miraculously healed from cancer or blindness or any other ailment, it is always possible to explain it away (Cancers sometimes disappear. Some cases of blindness are healed by natural processes, etc., etc., etc.)

[Michelle]

RV certainly can, and hopefully will, answer for himself.

I agree with you, Paidion, that there is objective evidence for miracles, which skeptics tend to wave away as coincidence or natural occurrence.

I think RV had a lot going on in his OP, although I'm not so sure he was saying that "for many non-Christians there is no objective evidence for miracles."

First of all, it seems that he was the one saying that there is an absence of miracles today, and I think RV is a believer. (I hope so, anyway.) Then he went on to say that his friend made a case for regeneration being a miracle, which leads me to think that his friend is a believer as well.

So, the first question that seems to come up is whether or not miracles still are happening today.

Then there seems to be a question about whether regeneration/sanctification is a miracle.

After that RV seemed to counter his friend's suggestion by saying that an apparently unregenerated Mormon lives a very morally upright life, which seems to invite a question about whether or not the work of the Holy Spirit is unique and observable.

[RND]

RV can answer for himself.

Nevertheless, I think he is saying that for many non-Christians there is no objective evidence for miracles. Pointing to the outward fruits of being delivered from sin will not do, since many people (perhaps by self-effort) have succeeded in reforming their lives, doing the same good things and avoiding the same evil things. I suspect that most of those who reform through self-effort will not be able to maintain their new standard.

My view is that there is objective evidence for miracles. But even if a person is miraculously healed from cancer or blindness or any other ailment, it is always possible to explain it away (Cancers sometimes disappear. Some cases of blindness are healed by natural processes, etc., etc., etc.)

Paidon, you make an excellent point. I might add that miracles are not necessarily a valid reason why we should be willing to put our faith and trust in the Lord. A piece of toast with the image of Jesus or Mary is a miracle to some but the Bible tells us plainly that even the spirits of devils will work miracles.

[RV]

Paidion is correct, and to give you a better understanding of what I'm saying, let me post the email thread that actually took place.

To give you some background, we started by talking about the absence of many miracles. Not that they don't happen, but clearly... there seem to be few.

Yes, I believe God can and has/does heal people. We don't see demons being cast out of people, at least I never have, and I've met a lot of people and none of them ever have.

The only people that I've heard claim to have, have been pastors. Most of which I doubt they even encountered a demon. Just because someone uses curse words and is yelling, doesn't mean they're demon possessed.


_________________________________________________________________________________

ME

OK, so let's try this all over again.

Here is the testimony from a family member:

Back in the 60's Tom was on the streets of San Francisco (Haight and Ashburry St), he was a "dead head." He was on drugs and living on the streets. Some Christians came sharing Christ one day and took him off the streets and discipled him.

His life was transformed. He turned from drugs immediately. He found a wife and had four children. God gave him a business of cabinet making and has never had to advertise.

He's came close to death several times with illness, but God has had mercy on him. His wife had breast cancer two years ago and was cured with treatment, they are thanking God for that.

His kids have all served Christ on the mission field. They are now blessed and are having kids themselves.

This all from a man, that was a "dead head", homeless on the streets of San Francisco, living the hippy life and engaged in "free love."

Now just a simple Yes or No, is this a miracle?

RV

P.S. Please, just a Yes or a No.

ME:

Let me clarify a little bit here.

Based on this:

For whatever its worth, what I got out of the article was that the work of salvation and how it transforms a sinful person into a saint is a miracle. I didn’t think he was excusing the absence of miracles, by focusing on good works. Do you not see the miracle in how salvation is able to transform dead people into live people so that they are even able to produce real fruitful good works? ~ Friend

Would the testimony (in my previous email) below be what you were talking about?

Again, please just a simple Yes or No.

RV

P.S. I'm taking this slow so we don't miss the point here.

Friend

YES

ME

Tom is actually uncle Tom and is a pretty neat guy with some pretty interesting stories from the 60's.

Like a lot of people, Tom didn't grow up in the church. He says, "God changed his life", that he was dead in a lifestyle of sin and God delivered him.

But... there are a few important details in this story that are important (i think).

First off, Tom has never gone back to that old lifestyle. He still goes to church and worships his God. Tom believes back in the 60's that God gave him a testimony and that Joseph Smith is a prophet. Those missionaries from the Church of Latter Day saints were faithful to God and took in a stranger and blessed him.

Through the years Tom has watch God do some "amazing" stuff. He's not once had to advertise for his cabinet making business. Not only that, he always is turning down work.

God has provided for all his children to go on the mission field. No support from anyone except from him.

He's been hospitalized so many times with different stuff. He's got some rare blood disorder, but God has always taken care of him.

He believes Jesus died for his sins and is one day looking forward to having his own planet with multiply wives one day.

So... based on this:

For whatever its worth, what I got out of the article was that the work of salvation and how it transforms a sinful person into a saint is a miracle. I didn’t think he was excusing the absence of miracles, by focusing on good works. Do you not see the miracle in how salvation is able to transform dead people into live people so that they are even able to produce real fruitful good works? ~ Friend

Would you still consider this a miracle of salvation.

Again for now, just a simple Yes or No.

Thanks,

RV

Friend

NO

ME

OK... why not? Before you found out he was a Mormon it was a miracle.

Friend

All he did was exchange one lie for another. Granted, the new lie looks a heck of a lot better than the old lie, but it’s still a lie. On the outside, it appears there is an amazing transformation, but it’s only skin deep. He’s still going to hell. He may not be on drugs and living on the streets anymore, but essentially all he did was jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire. That isn’t a miracle.

ME

Well then to answer your question:

Do you not see the miracle in how salvation is able to transform dead people into live people so that they are even able to produce real fruitful good works? ~ Friend

No I don't see it.

Other than the message, outwardly both messages (along with many others messages) are able to do the same thing. Lie or not, outwardly I wouldn't be able to distinguish between you or uncle Tom. Both of you believe adultery, telling a lie and the works of the flesh are sins. Both of you are good fathers and are faithful to your wives. Both of you testify of God providing for you in "amazing" ways. You both go to church. You both are great guys. You both read the bible.

So yeah, no I don't see what your talking about.

Thanks for the input,

RV

______________________________________________________________________________________

Yes Michelle, I'm a believer. I'm just trying to ACTS 17:11 so I can 1 Peter 3:15.

I'm just trying to sort through all these christian cliches that many go around teaching as gospel.

[Michelle]

Hi RV,

Sorry...I shouldn't have questioned your belief, I just didn't want to misrepresent you

I think I agree with you on everything else...but maybe not, you seem to imply I don't.

Michelle

[Homer]

RV, et al,

Consider the following:

Luke 1:5-6 (New King James Version)

5. There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Here we are told of Zacharias and Elizabeth who lived blameless lives. They were Jews, not Christians. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, yet lived their lives, if we are to believe the testimony of scripture, at least as well as RV's "Uncle Tom". And if two Jews were able to accomplish this 2000 years ago, who's to say Jews can not do the same today? Or Mormons? Or unbelievers? There are atheists who are good, decent people.

RV wrote:

To give you some background, we started by talking about the absence of many miracles. Not that they don't happen, but clearly... there seem to be few.

RV, I agree. If we consider the number of events that occur and the percent that are miracles, it has to be minuscule. It would be difficult to live in this world if it wasn't highly predictable.

[RV]

Here we are told of Zacharias and Elizabeth who lived blameless lives. They were Jews, not Christians. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, yet lived their lives, if we are to believe the testimony of scripture, at least as well as RV's "Uncle Tom". And if two Jews were able to accomplish this 2000 years ago, who's to say Jews can not do the same today? Or Mormans? Or unbelievers? There are atheists who are good, decent people.

I really really hope so Homer. Thanks for that thought and very good point.

"Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."... (Luke 23:34)

God is merciful, and I pray and hope His mercy extends far beyond what I could even imagine.

[steve]

There are several parts of this picture that I think we need to keep in mind:

1) The fewness of sensational, external miracles (such as the sun stopping in the heavens, or water being turned to blood—or to wine) is what we would expect, if the Bible is any indicator of the frequency of such things. According to the record of scripture, there have been four relatively-brief seasons in history that were thick with genuine miracles of this type: 1) the creation week; 2) the time of the exodus and the establishment of the nation Israel; 3) the season dominated by the ministries of Elijah and Elisha; and 4) the time of the establishment of the New Israel (i.e., the ministries of Jesus and the apostles). That's mighty few interruptions of the general laws of nature in a period of over 6000 years.

Of course, throughout the Old Testament, in the times between these seasons of the miraculous, there were occasional, individual cases of miracles arising from special providences or specific answers to prayer (e.g. the confusion of languages at Babel, the flood of Noah's day, the pregnancies of Sarah, Rebekah and Hannah; the angel of the Lord slaughtering the Assyrian army besieging Jerusalem, and the defeat of the multitudinous armies that threatened Jehoshaphat; Hezekiah's healing, with the associated going back of the shadow on the sun dial; the deliverance of Daniel's three friends, in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, and of Daniel himself, seventy years later). We can read of all these miracles (and more) in only a few months' time, while reading through the Old Testament. This may give the false impression that miracles were happening every week or so, but in reality, there was not so much as one recorded miracle of this type per century (on average), apart from those special seasons of the miraculous to which I have referred.

In other words, if we are noticing a shortage of sensational miracles in our own day, then our age is about average (biblically speaking) on that score.

2) One might expect that the season of miracles that was begun by Christ should be continuing undiminished throughout the millennia since His coming, given His prediction that those who believe in Him will do "greater works" even than what He did in His lifetime (John 14:12). But has this not come true?

If all of the miracles done, since the time of Christ, through the prayers of Christians (or even all of those being so performed even in our lifetime throughout the world) could be tabulated, I believe that they would outnumber those performed by Christ in His lifetime by a factor of thousands. This, in itself, would satisfy the expectation of the continuation of miracles since the time of Christ. Many movements, even in the Middle Ages, placed emphasis on healings, exorcisms, and miraculous gifts—though many were marginalized by the Roman Catholic Church. Besides the healings of a miraculous sort, one could add the millions of sick who have recovered through the ministry of Christian medical missionaries, doctors, nurses, and sisters of charity. Jesus said the "works" would be greater. He did not say they would all be miraculous. As far as I know, Mother Theresa never ministered miraculous healing to a leper or to a malnourished child, but she alone may have done more "good works," in her long lifetime, than Jesus had occasion to do in His short one.

3) When we come to the miracles associated with conversion, reformation and sanctification of sinners through the Gospel, we do, I believe, come to the most important continuation of the miraculous work of Christ to be considered. The kingdom of God is not characterized simply by a series or a catalogue of specific violations of the laws of nature. The kingdom is itself a continuous miracle. It is comparable to a stone that miraculously grows into a mountain to fill the earth—also likened to such "natural miracles" as the growth of a tiny seed into a great plant, or of a mere pinch of yeast causing the rise of a large lump of dough.

With the resurrection of Christ there was introduced into history a life that is the light of men. Its supernatural power is seen, not only in the transformation of the individuals who embrace Jesus as their own King, but even in its astonishing influence upon societies largely comprised of individuals who think they reject Him. The power of the kingdom of God is such, that, even though God's own people have exercised so little faith in it, and have obeyed its dictates so poorly—even so!—it has transformed the culture and philosophy of every portion of the world which has experienced its benign invasion.

This is not only seen, as I said, in the great deliverances specifically worked in Christ's name in the lives of His true disciples, but even in the changed lives of heretical imitators, and even of moral atheists. If we could but go back in time to the period prior to Christianity, we would see clearly the degree to which these changes all testify to the unstoppable and healing advance of that "good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."

You see, every society that even believes that drunks and drug addicts should be redeemed (by whatever means they choose to attempt this)—and that establishes care units for the sick, provisions for the elderly, arrangements for the care of orphans, the abolition of slavery, of racism, of sexism, that sees a need to adopt just and humane rules even of warfare, and to show generosity toward defeated enemies, etc.—every society like that, is a direct pensioner upon the healing light of the Gospel that has spread throughout the earth.

The transformation of an individual life is only the most miniscule token of the miraculous transformation of the world that the Gospel has wrought and is still bringing about. The kingdom of God is itself the great miracle, of which somewhat rare individual miracles are there to remind us.