OT Law vs Grace...

[jriccitelli]

Hello Jason, I was trying to find the post where I responded to this similar idea, but until I find it I can say;
God required payment for all sins, thus the animal sacrifices that foretold the sacrifice of Gods only Son as was foretold in the story of Abraham and Isaac. Since Jesus was 'the' sacrifice for sin, all 'Eternal' Judgment has been postponed while people have a chance to choose to fear God, repent, trust in the sacrifice of His Son (and show proof of a sincere repentance). Then God will Judge the world by His Word. There are only two sacrifices for sin, Jesus sacrifice, and the sacrifice God will make of sinners after the Judgment.
As Christians we withhold Judgment in personal matters, but we must allow the law due process in order to have civility and society. I personally think we as Christians have a responsibility to protect the innocent and stand for justice, a responsibility we must participate in for the sake of unbelievers. As I have said I am not going to allow someone to be a victim because 'I' believe in a God. And I will come to the defense of anyone being wronged by another person to cause injury.

Adultery and Homosexuality were punishable under Jewish Law, but we are not Jewish.
We are not under the Law because Jesus paid the penalty of the Mosaic Law.
We are told to obey the laws of the land we live in, and Gods Law is a good guide to understanding right from wrong, certainly in the eyes of God. Yet we as believers are led by the Holy Spirit, which really speaks of being aware and responsible for our 'own' behavior.
All sin is 'like' leprosy, it starts small and gets worse and worse eventually killing the person and often infecting and killing those who come in contact, God has said all sin is the same way, and history has verified this. For man to have a eternal existence, no sin can be allowed because it will multiply and act like a disease, luring more and more into it. God is saying; 'Choose not to want sin and nothing that touches it'. That is the only way to have eternal life, it is scientific and logical.
God destroyed lands and tribes, the message is clear; God does not put up with sin for long, but more instructional is the principle of wiping out every last thread of sin. (See; the Israelites continued idolatry in the wilderness continued over from Egypt - Allowing the men to inter marry and the idolatry that develops - etc.) God was wiping out sin, these principles are given in real life with real sinners and man continues in sin… anyhow that’s all the time I got.

'Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men' (2Peter 3:3-7)

[jriccitelli]

Jason, I might add that;
Without law you generally have anarchy, and rampant corruption.
The final Judgment may also include (or be synonymous with) the tribulation destruction.

As little as I have read of ancient Jewish History it does seem that the Jews as a people put relatively very few to death under the Law, as the Law was interpreted generally through the Talmud and needed an agreement among the priests, with final order from the High priest. Priests generally did not want such responsibility and were glad to agree with developing tradition to demand more witnesses, evidence, leniency, etc. And so it developed that they had a rather benevolent approach to the death penalty, even in modern times (12th Century) the Jews had written 'Rather to let 10,000 go free than to put to death one innocent person' (although I personally do not agree). The Jews generally had too many outside enemies to consider putting to death their own. I might also add that since the destruction and following Diaspora the Jews have not had a priesthood making it hard to uphold any of the Law which required a priests decision.

I personally withhold my own displeasure and desire to yell (or…) at pushy and dangerous drivers knowing there will come a Day of Judgment, and I am hoping God will also be having traffic court.
(I wanted to clarify when I say 'there are two sacrifices for sins' I mean there will be two made, but only 'one' will take away sin, the second is when God treads out the Winepress in His anger)

[parsonsmom]

Thank you, Paidion. I realize you are not among those who believe these OT laws were actually commanded by God and I respect that. I guess I'm looking for answers from the more "orthodox" perspective because they/we are the ones who have something to reconcile here. And not to veer too far off topic, but the "woman caught in adultery" is a sketchy passage and may not be true account. It's earliest appearance (which, I think, actually appears in Luke's gospel) carries a pretty late date (9th century?). It may be a genuine passage, but I wouldn't stock any important doctrines upon it.

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The law of Moses, the law of liberty.

Psalms:19;7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Ps:119;1Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
8I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
9Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
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Luke:16;14And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
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Matt:17;17 Jesus said;Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
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The Rubennic law is what was abolished; the curse Jesus became;so we could be free; the law of moses was the
school master.




Jesus said; do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them, For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook, identifying certain Hebrew letters will pass from the Law until all things, it foreshadows are accomplished. Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least important of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least, important in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you,unless your righteousness your uprightness and your right standing with God is more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the whole person spirit,soul and body; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure and bright, enlightening the eyes. The reverent fear or obedience,to the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the ordinances of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, even than much fine gold; they are sweeter also than honey and drippings from the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is Your servant warned, reminded, illuminated, and instructed; and in keeping them there is great reward.
Clear me oh Lord from hidden and unconscious faults. Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then shall I be blameless, and I shall be innocent and clear of great transgression.
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my firm, impenetrable Rock and my Redeemer. BLESSED, HAPPY, fortunate, to be envied, are the undefiled, the upright, truly sincere, and blameless, in the way, of the revealed will of God, who walk, order their conduct and conversation in the law of the Lord, the whole of God's revealed will. Blessed, happy, fortunate, to be envied are they who keep His testimonies, and who seek, inquire for and, of, Him and crave Him with the whole heart. Yes, they do no unrighteousness, no willful wandering from His precepts, they walk in His ways. You have commanded us to keep Your precepts, that we should observe them diligently.Oh, that my ways are directed and established to observe Your statutes, hearing, receiving, loving, and obeying them, Then shall I not be put to shame, by failing to inherit Your promises when I have respect to all Your commandments. I will praise and give thanks to You with uprightness of heart when I learn, by sanctified experiences Your righteous judgments, Your decisions against and punishments for particular lines of thought and conduct . Then He said to them, Pay therefore to Caesar the things that are due to Caesar, and pay to God the things that are due to God and Earnestly remember the law of Moses, My servant, the statutes and the ordinances which I commanded him on Mount Horeb' to give to all Israel. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes,And he shall turn and reconcile the hearts of the estranged fathers to the ungodly children, and the hearts of the rebellious children, to the piety of their fathers, a reconciliation produced by repentance of the ungodly, lest I come and smite the land with a curse and a ban of utter destruction,
But unto you who revere and worshipfully fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings and His beams, and you shall go forth and gambol like calves released from the stall and leap for joy.
Respectfully, Parsonsmom

[parsonsmom]

The law does reflect God's heart in many ways but I don't think the present era requires us to enforce the OT law upon people today. One problem with such effort to enforce this law is that the law of Moses was given to Jews, not to Christians. Another problem is that the law was given for the narrow purpose of preserving Israel until the time of Christ. We'll look at this latter point.

Israel was given land in the midst of a corrupt land that had to fill up its inquity before God could judge it. Then, after the Exodus, God judged those nations.

The Law of Moses then sought to limit the tendency to fall into the behavior of the surrounding nations. I believe that the Law of Moses gave Israel enough sense to stay out of the worst of trouble, where such trouble would have required earlier judgment on Jerusalem and the Israelites. God therefore sought to reduce divorce and idolatry and other sinful acts. Israel was supposed to stay relatively well behaved, but even Israel, with the availibility of the law and the guidance of prophets, still fell into idolatry.

(Other laws were probably typical laws for any society regarding murder, stealing, and land. The civil laws in the Bible do represent true justice instead of the inbalance shown in laws in other societies. Some societies, for example, work by fear and excessive punishment -- I'll speculate -- such as cutting off someone's hand for stealing a loaf of bread.)

So the laws of Moses pertaining to stonings most likely addressed a certain concern to preserve Israel until the time of rist. We may learn some sense of things that are immoral, but we are not given the power to enforce these laws. This power would come only by being an Israelite under the old covenant.

Shalom mikew; I am not here to debate; but a good discussion is fruitful; I believe the Word is explicit When it is read in contact; Jesus taught from the law of moses; I see that moses spent alot of time with YAWA {GOD} on the mountain;
yes in his anger he disobeyed gods instructions; he was instructed to speak to the rock to bring water for the people; but instead he struck the rock; which in turn he did not go into the promsed land; so back to the books of the Bible;
Matthew; Mark; Luke ;and Johe is still under the old Covenant. Until Jesus died and arose the new Covenant; was not in effect. Respectfully; Parsonsmom.

[Jason]

I appreciate the answers but many of them seem to be answering a different question or assumption. I apologize if I was not clear. It is said that in former times, God instructed the Israelites to execute rebellious children and homosexuals (just using those two examples because they are frequently brought up). From my reading of Jesus, he would in no way condone such actions for his followers. If Jesus (being God, or, the Logos of God in the OT) gave those instructions through Moses, then why did he change his mind when he became enfleshed?

I understand why the ceremonial laws were abolished, since they were symbolically fulfilled in Jesus during his incarnated life. But what of the moral laws? Executing the rebellious was not a ceremonial issue. Were the sins of those people (who otherwise would've faced stoning) covered, symbolically, through the sacrificial system? In such a case, the evil person would be free to go, right? Or was that only to cleanse the nation, and not the individual? If I did something under the law of Moses which required execution and, at my trial, I said... "Yes, I did this terrible thing. But our law states that I'm washed of my sin by the yearly offering," would I be excused? I'm curious.

I'm looking for some rigorous thought here. Jesus gave his disciples (us; the church) instructions about how to deal with an unrepentant sinner among us. Moses gave similar commands. The two commands are very different from one another. Is one morally superior to the other?

[parsonsmom]

Shalom Jayson, what Scriptures are you using in the first and the renewed Covenant?


Know and understand that it is really the people who live by faith who are the true sons of Abraham;and the Scripture; foreseeing that God would justify; declare righteous; or put in right standing with Himself; the Gentiles in consequence of faith; proclaimed the Gospel; foretelling the glad tidings of a Savior long beforehand to Abraham in the promise saying; In you shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;So then, those who are people of faith are blessed and made happy and favored by God; as partners in fellowship with the believing and trusting Abraham; And all who depend on the Law; who are seeking to be justified by obedience to the Law of rituals; are under a curse and doomed to disappointment and destruction; for it is written in the Scriptures; Cursed; accursed; devoted to destruction; doomed to eternal punishment; be everyone who does not continue to abide; live and remain by all the precepts and commands written in the Book of the Law; and to practice them; Now it is evident that no person is justified; declared righteous and brought into right standing with God through the Law; for the Scripture says; The man in right standing with God; the just; the righteous shall live by and out of faith; and he who through and by faith is declared righteous and in right standing with God shall live.
But the Law does not rest on faith; does not require faith; has nothing to do with faith; for it itself says he who does them; the things prescribed by the Law; shall live by them; not by faith. Respectfully; Parsonsmom.
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[jriccitelli]

Jason asked; "Executing the rebellious was not a ceremonial issue. Were the sins of those people (who otherwise would've faced stoning) covered, symbolically, through the sacrificial system?"

Unfortunately it seems the only way to understand the actual handling of the Law would be to research the application of the Law by the Jews themselves. You would think the Law was very clear concerning the death penalty for sinners, as the Laws of payments, retributions and restorations were very clear also. So you would think 'every' crime was punished.
But that is not the way it was then, just as it is today.

First consider the non-death penalty cases; each case may have necessitated only a principle of the Laws application, since all crimes are so varied and different, just as it is today.
All death penalty crimes were, I am sure, each complicated by their own sets of various circumstances (as it is today), so each case was not so cut and dry (each case was not so cut and dry even as it is today).
The first step in judgment of a crime would be to have 'someone' bring it to court, but tight families and small communities 'generally' do not haul they're own to 'court', and generally work it out amongst themselves (as most Israel lived in small separated communities, or tribes). To bring a case before the 'higher' Jewish court would require a bit of effort on part of the accusers and secondly; Witnesses, here also is a great variable and difficulty, as it is today. Remember there was no witness protection program, and if you accused neighboring tribes of a crime, you may have to lock your own gate up at night for awhile, so bringing something to 'court' was no small, or safe, matter (The Jews didn’t have a police force driving around, nor government employees trying to track down code violators. That is until the Pharisee police showed up later on in history).

Nobody generally wants to get 'authorities' of any kind involved, nobody's so perfect to want code enforcement snooping around their own property
And just as no one wants the code enforcement officer snooping around their own property, so it is with blowing the whistle on someone else. This gets closer to the 'principle' that Jesus focused on also; when you go before a judge with your accusation against a brother you had better be sure the tables do not get turned on you. This is precisely what Romans chap.2 goes on about;

Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?...

And also the testimony of Israel itself condemns the morality of man, even the keepers of the Law themselves were flagrant violators, even putting to death the innocent Law keeper Himself, the only One who kept the law (Who also will be their Judge), so laying down the Law and administering its punishments have forever been put into a new light and perspective after witnessing the failure and immorality of the Jewish Law keepers.

[jriccitelli]

Jason asked; I understand why the ceremonial laws were abolished, since they were symbolically fulfilled in Jesus during his incarnated life. But what of the moral laws?

I think Jesus' condemnation of the Jewish Law keepers was enough to give most people reason to withhold Law administration, refrain from policing others on the Law, and refrain from pointing out sins in others. The Jesus perspective is to 'pull the log out of our own eye' and 'if your own eye causes you to sin tear it out', so the Christian admonition is to judge ourselves first. Desire mercy not sacrifice, and "do not Judge so that you may not be judged, for with the judgment you make you will be judged" (Matt 7). The woman caught in adultery is a great example (apocryphal or not) because the guilty man should also have been brought in, not just the woman, so they were unjustly protecting the man involved. And this also illustrates how the tables are turned, now it is the Pharisees who are guilty of sin. This has to be the Christian principle in judging 'we are all guilty' but in order to keep civility law and order amongst a society you still must have law and courts rather than rampant and flagrant immorality (as it is today) that is why Jesus also says;
"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church" (Matt 18:15-18)
But we keep in mind Jesus will be Judge and He also says;
"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea" (Matt 18:5)

[parsonsmom]

I've noticed a trend lately among the more caustic non-believers that I have encountered. Many of them have taken to memorizing what we might call "severe" portions of OT scripture, usually having to do with stoning children or homosexuals, or about female menstrual laws (usually added for humor). Now I usually dismiss those who argue just to make their case without any regard for nuance in their thinking. However, I will admit that it's more difficult to dismiss one portion of the challenge. Unlike these unbelievers I mentioned, I actually believe God gave those laws to Moses. But moving on from that, I'm still forced to ask the question: Why don't we stone rebellious children and homosexuals today? I'm not sure it's as simple as saying, "Well, Jesus changed all that."

If God gave Moses a righteous, just form of law... then why not uphold the sanctioned stonings today? It makes sense to do away with ceremonial laws since they appear to have been pointing to (and fulfilled in) Christ himself. But don't we Christians usually argue that the "moral aspect of the law" is to be upheld today? Since homosexuality and rebellion are considered moral choices, why are we more lenient on those issues? Sure, Christ put an end to the law of death, according to NT scripture, but Jesus pulled most of his teachings from the books of Moses. "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "love your enemy" are both OT mandates and could be considered part of "the law." So why did Jesus yank those commands forward, and not the other moral obligations, such as stoning the rebellious?

I've heard it reasoned that we don't use that form of judgement any longer because we're not living in a theocratic society like ancient Israel was. But is that true? Is not the church itself a theocratic society, governed by God himself? It would then seem that, according to this explanation, stoning the rebellious could be allowed inside a close-knit Christian society if governmental laws don't prohibit it (such as Pope-rule in ancient Europe). And yet Jesus says if the rebellious person doesn't listen even to the church's admonition, the person should be left alone to fend off the adversary. Why not stone him?

Now, of course I'm being tongue-in-cheek about some of this and, for the record, I don't condone stoning the rebellious. But I'd love to hear a discussion on why some of the moral obligations of the OT are not carried out nowadays. To the unbeliever, I say that those conditions were given by God directly to Israel (one nation) for a season of time, and I don't know why those laws were chosen, but it was never God's idea for them to be universally binding on every generation, whether Jew or Gentile. After all, God didn't ask the Jews to prosthelytize the surrounding nations back then. Does anyone have a better answer than me?

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Shalom Jason ; Do you not beleave that the Ten Commandments were written by YHWH. Parsonsmom

[Jason]

Shalom Jason ; Do you not beleave that the Ten Commandments were written by YHWH. Parsonsmom

I affirm that the Ten Commandments were given by God. But that list is not exhaustive of what we mean by "the law" and none of the Ten have been contested in this thread. However, it might be important to remember that when Jesus was asked about the most important commandment, he quoted Leviticus 19:18... and not one of the Ten specifically.