Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

dizerner

Re: Which is of late date?

Post by dizerner » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:25 pm

Paidion wrote:
Dizerner wrote:We should also note that due to the late nature of the LXX, the Jews often accused the LXX of having been written with Christian sympathies, with an intent to favor Jesus' Messiahship.
It is the Masoretic text that is of late date, the oldest fragments dating from the 9th century A.D., and the oldest complete texts from the 10th and 11th centuries A.D.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masorete.htm

On the other hand, the Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew (a different form of Hebrew from the Masoretic text) from 300 to 200 B.C.

http://www.septuagint.net/
You're missing the point, the MT is not the only Hebrew Bible to ever exist. We have other writings of Jews, where they talk about how they view the LXX versus whatever manuscripts they were currently using, which the MT eventually came from. Please broaden your mind out of this simplistic "LXX vs MT" thinking.

"The Jews early learnt to dislike the Septuagint. The Christians used it in their Messianic controversies, and even accused the Jews—quite groundlessly—of having falsified the original in passages which bore on Christian controversy. The Jews could easily justify themselves against such a charge, but their most orthodox Rabbis soon began to declare that the translation of the sacred Law was a crime and misfortune as bad for Israel as the day on which the golden calf was made."

The Jews then started making ultra literal Septuagints (Greek OTs) to combat Christian apologists (ie. Aquila).

Encyclopaedia Britannica:

"The Jews first began to dislike and reject the Septuagint, when they found that its renderings were peculiarly valuable for the purposes of Christian controversy. They therefore adopted in lieu of it the version of Aquila, the chief merit of which is its slavish literalism.... Since the Septuagint had long been used in almost all their synagogues, this condemnation of it came a little too late in the day ; and the Christians, who had no means of consulting the original, prized the translation with an extravagant veneration, and accepted it as an inspired production, and even preferred it to the Hebrew text. Jerome’s profound learning led him to see that such views were untenable, and in forming the design of making a fresh translation from the Hebrew, he pointed out the necessity for doing so by showing the errors of the LXX. This proposal alarmed St Augustine as much as the suggestion of a revision of our English version alarms the more timid divines of the present day; and when Jerome was driven by the Bishop’s opposition into further arguments, he finally forbade the use of Jerome's translation within his diocese. Rufiinus was even more violent and unreasonable in his attacks on the proposed innovation; and, on the whole, the Septuagint maintained its high authority until the conclusion of the eighteenth century, when it began to be rated at its true value, as a version which can not be regarded as possessing any claims to equal authority with the Hebrew text, although it is exceedingly important for all the purposes of Scriptural interpretation."

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Paidion
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Re: Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:41 pm

Dizerner wrote:You're missing the point, the MT is not the only Hebrew Bible to ever exist.
I am not missing the point. You began with "due to the late nature of the LXX..." Why should I address the consequent of this phrase when the phrase itself implies that which is false?

Nor have I ever suggested that the MT is the only Hebrew Bible to ever exist. I have frequenty referred to the Hebrew of cave 4 in Qumran as being of a text-type which corresponds to the Septuagint, while admitting that the other caves contain Hebrew of a text-type that is more similar to the Masoretic text than to the Septuagint.

I will ignore your foolish "Broaden your mind" remark.
Paidion

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dizerner

Re: Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

Post by dizerner » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:18 pm

I will ignore your foolish "Broaden your mind" remark.
It's not foolish, just because you don't like it. You're oversimplifying the debate and you should be humble enough to admit that.

Here's a great article on Aquila: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... reignchars

Notice especially:

It will suffice here to point out that Aquila's version is one of the three sources by the aid of which the current texts of the Septuagint have been irregularly revised [over time] into conformity with a Hebrew text like that of our printed Bibles.

And:

Recent investigation has made it clear that Origen's efforts to emend the Greek from the Hebrew were only too successful [including using Aquila's version], and that every known text and recension of the Septuagint except the scanty fragments of the Old Latin have been influenced by the Hexaplar revision.

And especially:

The "Hexapla"—a colossal undertaking compiled by Origen (died about 254) with the object of correcting the text of the Septuagint—consisted of the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, the Hebrew text in Greek letters, the Septuagint itself as revised by Origen, and the Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion, all arranged in six parallel columns

If only we still had this manuscript it would answer a lot of our questions! But it shows 3 major versions of the LXX even as far back as that.

dizerner

Re: Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

Post by dizerner » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:32 pm

From an article by Emmanuel Tov, one of the leading experts in the field:

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robbyyoung
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Re: Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:02 pm

Brothers,

I don't believe Paidion is being simplistic, nor do I believe dizerner is being negligent in harmonizing all available resources. However, how can one not be frustrated when dealing with non originals?! I'm a full preterist for many reasons, the accuracy of the written record conflated with true prophets for confirmation to an event-based original audience, is one of the reasons!

God The Father, purposely left US, post AD 70 believers, what He said would remain after The Perfect has come, "Faith, Hope, and Love". We will forever quibble over these errant copies and speculate, to no end, what was in the mind of the authors. Well the authors are gone and their mission was completed. The original audience got the message, firsthand, and history records the destruction or judgement on Israel and apparent manifestation of Christ's coming and salvation for the faithful in the 1st Century.

Without true Prophets or Apostles, how could anyone believe, whole heartedly, in any one copy of the historical record?

God Bless.

dizerner

Re: Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

Post by dizerner » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:17 pm

whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
So you believe knowledge has vanished away? I guess that would make the study of God's Word pretty irrelevant...

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robbyyoung
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Re: Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:14 pm

dizerner wrote:
whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
So you believe knowledge has vanished away? I guess that would make the study of God's Word pretty irrelevant...
Hi dizerner,

Yes, the knowledge in view most likely is the gift spoken about in 1 Cor 12:8. However, this knowledge was given to the church, in the 1st Century, to accurately be a witness to THE TRUTH, whether it be past, present or in THEIR future. THEIR future had an end, and it wasn't the END OF TIME! When that TIME or END CAME, God said all that He would ever have to say. Studying the historical account has nothing to do with that "knowledge" spoken of. That knowledge consisted of expanding or adding to The Word of God, it was inspired if you will.

We study the historical record. The historical record clearly emphasis the original audience as the recipients of all said future events. Therefore, we are told what remains; and either we believe it or not. Those who choose to believe there's something else to it, go for it! But for those who believe there isn't, they are justified in their belief because the evidence, to said events, in every writing, is 100% purposed to the original audience - 2000 years ago!

Do you think The Bereans were dealing with the nonsense we are dealing with when THEY searched the scriptures? NO! :?

God Bless.

Jose
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Re: Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

Post by Jose » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:06 pm

robbyyoung wrote:We study the historical record. The historical record clearly emphasis the original audience as the recipients of all said future events. Therefore, we are told what remains; and either we believe it or not. Those who choose to believe there's something else to it, go for it! But for those who believe there isn't, they are justified in their belief because the evidence, to said events, in every writing, is 100% purposed to the original audience - 2000 years ago!

Do you think The Bereans were dealing with the nonsense we are dealing with when THEY searched the scriptures? NO! :?

God Bless.
Just a minor point in all this, but the Bereans were not recipients of any scriptural data or apostolic revelation concerning immediate future events. They were searching through the OT to validate Paul's claims about Christ.

dizerner

Re: Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

Post by dizerner » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:42 pm

Good point, Jose.

Robby, the Word of God lives and abides forever, not until 70 AD. We can all be good Bereans and I hope I am one. I won't neglect the study of God's Word because some people want to tell me it's all over with and doesn't apply me.

God bless

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TheEditor
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Re: Why I Don't Believe in The Septuagint

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:13 pm

I think the term is "speech of knowledge" which was a very specific gift, not necessarily shared by others. It had nothing to do with study. It was supernatural and as such would have vanished with other gifts, if one's view is that the gifts vanished.

Regards, Brenden.
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