The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

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Paidion
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The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:56 am

The following may not be the most frequently misquoted verse, but my experience leads me to think that it is.

The misquote is: "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." This misquote is often used to support the view that, at death, Christians go immediately to heaven. I have even known seasoned Bible teachers who stated this misquote, and who thought I was off my beam when I said that it wasn't in the Bible.

Paul would hardly have taught that Christians are immediately present with the Lord in heaven at death. For he wrote in 1 Cor 15:16-19
For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
I understand this as saying that if the dead are not raised, then those who have died have perished forever—no longer exist. Yet, I have heard it argued that Paul is saying only that this would be the case if Christ had not been raised. But verse 32 seems to support my understanding:
What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
Is Paul not saying here that if the dead are not raised, then we might as well enjoy the present life as long as possible, for there would be no afterlife?

However, if we go immediately to heaven at death there WOULD be an afterlife apart from the resurrection. Indeed what would be the importance of a resurrection at all, if we go to heaven as disembodied spirits? Would we not be eternally happy in the presence of the Lord and our departed loved ones? Maybe the entertainment of that idea provides the reason why so many minimize our bodily resurrection.

But then what DID Paul mean by the misquoted verse? Let's examine it in its context (2 Corinthians 5):
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Paul seems to think of our natural body as a house or a tent in which we dwell. But the house that comes from God in which we SHALL dwell, is our changed body—our resurrection body.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
In our present body we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our resurrection body which has its source from God in heaven. When we have been so clothed, we will not be found "naked" that is, we will not be mere disembodied spirits.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
Again he says we groan in this present body, not because we want to be "unclothed", mere disembodied spirits, but be further clothed, that is with our resurrection body, so that our mortal body may be swallowed up with the everlasting life of our immortal body.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
While we remain in our present mortal body, we are absent from the Lord, who is in heaven.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
We would rather be absent from this present mortal body and be present with the Lord in our immortal resurrection body.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner

Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dizerner » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:27 pm

The idea of soul sleep is very interesting. The first time I heard someone heavily emphasize this as an important truth several years back, I was wondering why. There is no emphasis in Scripture on any waiting time between death and the afterlife. But it seems Paul definitely thought it was possible to be in heaven without a body. He writes:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

Paul could not wonder if he was in or out of his body, if he didn't think it was even possible to be in heaven outside his body.

εἴτε ἐν σώματι εἴτε χωρὶς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα (2Co 12:3 NA28)

steve7150
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve7150 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:13 pm

However, if we go immediately to heaven at death there WOULD be an afterlife apart from the resurrection. Indeed what would be the importance of a resurrection at all, if we go to heaven as disembodied spirits? Would we not be eternally happy in the presence of the Lord and our departed loved ones? Maybe the entertainment of that idea provides the reason why so many minimize our bodily resurrection.









For one thing it is at the resurrection we are given immortality. Jesus did say to the Sadduces that in heaven we would be like the angels not marrying but perhaps he also meant we would be physically like angels. IMHO Paul expected to be with the Lord at death plus he said to die is gain which only means one thing.

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Paidion
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:15 pm

What Paul expressed was not "soul sleep." What he expressed was non-existence (if there is no resurrection).
There is no emphasis in Scripture on any waiting time between death and the afterlife.
I would be surprised if there were! Of course there's no waiting time. Who said there was? After death you don't wait. Rather you don't exist—until your resurrection.
For you personally, right after death you will be in the presence of God (even though a thousand years on earth may have passed prior to your resurrection).

I remember the time I had surgery. I looked at the clock. It was 1:00 P.M. Then I heard a kind of tinkling sound. I looked at the clock again. It was 3:00 P.M.! The surgery had been performed. For me, no time had passed at all. I said aloud, "This is amazing!" The nurses nearby ignored the comment. They thought my mind was rambling because of coming out of the effects of the anesthetic. But my mind was perfectly clear when I said it. I was amazed that I could look at the clock, and then immediately (I thought) look at it again and two hours had passed. There was no "waiting time" for me.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:18 pm

Steve 7150 wrote:IMHO Paul expected to be with the Lord at death plus he said to die is gain which only means one thing.
And what is that one thing that it means to you? That he would immediately be with the Lord? Well, from Paul's point of view, that will be true. When he is raised from the dead, it will seem to have been immediately after death.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner

Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dizerner » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:30 pm

Paidion wrote:What Paul expressed was not "soul sleep." What he expressed was non-existence (if there is no resurrection).
Well don't be turned off by the term "soul sleep" it's a metaphor meant to describe any period of time we are not aware between death and the afterlife. Jesus did after all say people who were dead were "not dead but sleeping" but also that "all live to God" as well as describing Abraham and Lazarus in a state of conscious afterlife of some sort, presumably before the resurrection of their bodies (which seems to be a formal and final event inaugurating the permanent new creation).
I would be surprised if there were! Of course there's no waiting time. Who said there was? After death you don't wait. Rather you don't exist—until your resurrection.
For you personally, right after death you will be in the presence of God (even though a thousand years on earth may have passed prior to your resurrection).
This is a fair point logically. Without a consciousness to interact with time, it could be seen as virtually instantaneous. That's what I think when scientists tell us the universe might be billions of years old—without anywhere there, it would be like a millisecond passing by. Hebrews 12:1 does seem to imply a "crowd of witnesses" to the life of faith spur us on.

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve7150 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:38 pm

And what is that one thing that it means to you? That he would immediately be with the Lord? Well, from Paul's point of view, that will be true. When he is raised from the dead, it will seem to have been immediately after death.

Paidion









I think Paul's comments were consistently about one second he was here and the next second (at death) with the Lord. There is only one reason "to die is gain" , I think that this statement alone is compelling.
Last edited by steve7150 on Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by mattrose » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:40 pm

Personally, I find the debate about the intermediate state relatively boring.

Will we be conscious/aware between our death and the day of resurrection? I think there are some good reasons for believing so, but it (literally) wouldn't bother me if I wasn't conscious/aware! The intermediate state should only be of intermediate importance, it seems to me, in light of the glorious truth of resurrection. The real hope for Christians is not 'life after death', but (as N.T. Wright puts it) 'life AFTER life after death'.

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve7150 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:49 pm

Personally, I find the debate about the intermediate state relatively boring.












That's fine but I think Paul didn't find it boring.

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:21 pm

Hi Dizerner,
You wrote:Well don't be turned off by the term "soul sleep" it's a metaphor meant to describe any period of time we are not aware between death and the afterlife.
Well, acutually I don't think it is a metaphor. Those who believe in it assume that we have a "soul" (in the Greek sense) which is separate from the body, but which exists somewhere (maybe in heaven) but is unconscious until the resurrection.

Hi Steve 7150,
You wrote:I think Paul's comments were consistently about one second he was here and the next second (at death) with the Lord.
I don't think any of his comments suggest that.
You also wrote:There is only one reason "to die is gain" , I think that this statement alone is compelling.
Why would your "next second" argument necessarily be the only reason Paul said that.
Wouldn't it be gain to die, if the next moment of which he will be conscious is being in the Lord's presence? Would it make any difference to Paul whether the time between the two were a half second or four thousand years?

Hi Matt,
You wrote:Personally, I find the debate about the intermediate state relatively boring.
In that case, why read this thread? Why comment at all?
I recall in a class of 30 pupils I taught, one of them frequently commented that he found school boring. This comment bugged me.
I told him that if he participated in the classes to the extent that the other pupils participated, he wouldn't find it boring.
I told him that boredom results from lack of participation.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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