The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

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Paidion
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:20 pm

...many find them (an intermediate state and the resurrection) difficult to hold simultaneously—as even this thread demonstrates.
I used to hold them both, but I found that for me when I did, the importance of the resurrection diminished, and going to heaven at death took precedence. Indeed, at that time I wondered why bother with a resurrection at all? It seemed unnecessary.
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve7150 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:00 pm

I used to hold them both, but I found that for me when I did, the importance of the resurrection diminished, and going to heaven at death took precedence. Indeed, at that time I wondered why bother with a resurrection at all? It seemed unnecessary.

Paidion









Maybe it would except for a little detail called immortality. :D

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Paidion
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Hi Steve 7150,
You wrote:
Paidion wrote:I used to hold them both, but I found that for me when I did, the importance of the resurrection diminished, and going to heaven at death took precedence. Indeed, at that time I wondered why bother with a resurrection at all? It seemed unnecessary.
Maybe it would except for a little detail called immortality. :D
I don't understand. If there's no resurrection and you have an immortal soul, what more do you need?
Paidion

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve7150 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:15 pm

I don't understand. If there's no resurrection and you have an immortal soul, what more do you need?

Paidion











I think you know the bible never says our souls are immortal. Paul said only God grants immortality and he gives us immortality at the resurrection.

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:56 pm

I think you know the bible never says our souls are immortal.
I know that, but the majority of evangelical Christians who believe they have immortal souls don't. I don't think the Bible says we HAVE souls of any kind. In the Old Testament, the word translated as "soul" referred to one's being. In the New Testament, it referred to the self. But if we do have immaterial souls separate from our bodies, what would happen to them if there were no resurrection? Would they just fade out of existence? Wouldn't they just continue forever? Didn't the souls of the early Christians just keep on living? Haven't they existed for about 2000 years? Aren't they in as good condition now as they were at the beginning of their out-of-body existence? How are they any different from what they would be if they were immortal?
Paul said only God grants immortality and he gives us immortality at the resurrection.
Immortality to what? Our souls? Our resurrected bodies? Both?
Paul actually said God alone HAS immortality.
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:53 pm

I believe that we have already received eternal life (John 5:24). Therefore, I believe we live forever, regardless which phase of our future we may consider—in this present body, in a disembodied condition after death, in a resurrected, immortal body at the resurrection.

In this respect, my theology is rather unexceptional vis-a-vis standard evangelical orthodoxy. At this forum, we have people to my left (full-preterists), who believe only in the disembodied state, thinking I'm wrong in my belief in the resurrection—and we have people to my right, who believe only in the last-day resurrection, who think I'm wrong in believing in a disembodied, intermediate state. As C.S. Lewis said, "If the Patagonians think me a dwarf and the Pygmies a giant, perhaps my stature is in fact fairly unremarkable."

Some people, believing that salvation means little else than the avoidance of hell, cannot see a dime's worth of difference between post-mortem, disembodied existence in heaven, on the one hand, and being resurrected, on the other. In either case, hell is no longer a danger. Hence, the intermediate state, for them, eclipses (to the point of rendering them oblivious to) the resurrection.

My belief in the intermediate state does not take anything away from the necessity of the resurrection, since (as Paul said) we are not longing to be "unclothed, but further clothed" (2 Cor.5:4). The disembodied state is not our destiny, which is why we call it the "intermediate" state. God did not make humans to be ethereal spirits, but to be immortal, physical beings ruling a physical planet (Genesis 1:26-27). This remains God's purpose for us (2 Tim.2:12; Revelation 5:10). Christ's inheritance is to be "the uttermost parts of the earth" (Rom.4:13; Psalm 2:8; 72:8), and we are to be joint-heirs with Christ (Rom.8:16-17; Matt.5:5).

On the other hand, it is hard to know what to make of Christ's "all live to Him [including deceased Abraham, Isaac and Jacob]" (Luke 20:38), and Paul's distinction between "spirit, soul and body" (1 Thess.5:23; cf., Heb.4:12), and the possibility of one being "in the body or out of the body" (2 Cor.12:2, 3), and his concept of "departing" to be with Christ (Phil.1:23) or "remaining in the flesh" (v.24), or being "absent from" or "present in" the body (2 Cor.5:6-8), if there is no intermediate state of the dead.

While the resurrection is the ultimate goal, I don't believe that those who already possess eternal life, as we do, can, at any time in the future, be "dead" in any sense other than physically. "Whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:26).

dizerner

Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dizerner » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:03 pm

On the other side of the coin, the great white throne judgment seems to be after souls have already been in an unpleasant place. Even Hades itself will be thrown into the lake of fire. This is an interesting inverse parallel.

"and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged"

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:52 pm

God did not make humans to be ethereal spirits, but to be immortal, physical beings ruling a physical planet (Genesis 1:26-27). This remains God's purpose for us (2 Tim.2:12; Revelation 5:10). Christ's inheritance is to be "the uttermost parts of the earth" (Rom.4:13; Psalm 2:8; 72:8), and we are to be joint-heirs with Christ (Rom.8:16-17; Matt.5:5).
I fully accept all of this.
On the other hand, it is hard to know what to make of Christ's "all live to Him [including deceased Abraham, Isaac and Jacob]" (Luke 20:38)
In saying this, Jesus was answering the question of the Sadducees who did not believe there would be a resurrection of the dead. So they asked whose wife the woman would be who had married seven men. He said:

And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are living” (vs 34-38)

So Jesus was not talking about an intermediate state here. He was talking about the resurrection. God is not God of the dead (those who will stay dead forever). He is God of the living (thus the dead will be raised to life to live forever). Because God intends to raise everyone, to Him everyone is alive even NOW. Jesus introduces these words with "But that the dead are raised..." Clearly He was saying that these words are about the resurrection and not teaching that everyone who has died is actually alive now.
and Paul's distinction between "spirit, soul and body" (1 Thess.5:23; cf., Heb.4:12),
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't think Paul is making a distinction between body, soul, and spirit. I think it is just his way of wishing that each of the people would be kept completely blameless until the coming of the Lord. We use the same figures of speech today, such as, "He put his whole heart and soul into the job!" We are not making a distinction in doing this; we are just saying that the man put his entire effort into the job.

And the Hebrews passage:
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

The "word of God" in this passage seems to refer to Jesus (this is indicated by the second sentence). Jesus can see people's thoughts and intentions. "Piercing to the division of soul and spirit,, of joints and marrow" is a figure of speech indicating how thoroughly Jesus is able to read everyone. The soul (self) and spirit are indivisible—actually two aspects of the same entity. Even joints and marrow are a single entity, though we can visually distinguish them.
and the possibility of one being "in the body or out of the body" (2 Cor.12:2, 3),
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
If Paul is talking about himself, he seems to be describing an experience such that people sometimes have when they are dropping off to sleep. He said the man was "caught up to the third heaven." Is that the heavens above the visible heavens? Could Paul have been physically caught up to God's throne? He said he didn't know whether he was "in the body or out of the body." I know a person who felt the same way when she was on LSD. She said she felt herself caught up into the sky and could look down on her body.
But was her "soul" actually caught up and separated from her body? Or was this simply a mental experience? Could Paul's experience have been a mental one.

and his concept of "departing" to be with Christ (Phil.1:23) or "remaining in the flesh" (v.24), or being "absent from" or "present in" the body (2 Cor.5:6-8), if there is no intermediate state of the dead.
I have already explained this one in the original post.
Paidion

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:52 pm

steve wrote:I believe that we have already received eternal life (John 5:24). Therefore, I believe we live forever, regardless which phase of our future we may consider—in this present body, in a disembodied condition after death, in a resurrected, immortal body at the resurrection.

In this respect, my theology is rather unexceptional vis-a-vis standard evangelical orthodoxy. At this forum, we have people to my left (full-preterists), who believe only in the disembodied state, thinking I'm wrong in my belief in the resurrection—and we have people to my right, who believe only in the last-day resurrection, who think I'm wrong in believing in a disembodied, intermediate state. As C.S. Lewis said, "If the Patagonians think me a dwarf and the Pygmies a giant, perhaps my stature is in fact fairly unremarkable."

...God did not make humans to be ethereal spirits, but to be immortal, physical beings ruling a physical planet (Genesis 1:26-27). This remains God's purpose for us (2 Tim.2:12; Revelation 5:10). Christ's inheritance is to be "the uttermost parts of the earth" (Rom.4:13; Psalm 2:8; 72:8), and we are to be joint-heirs with Christ (Rom.8:16-17; Matt.5:5).
Hi Steve,

I don't only believe in disembodied state of resurrection. I hold to John 5:24 as well, however, verse 25 gives us the "already but not yet" concerning the nature "spiritual transformation or unseen reality", of the resurrection.
'Verily, verily, I say to you -- There cometh an hour, and it now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard shall live (YLT)
.

Our ruling the planet, as joint heirs with Yeshua, is done as immortals in the unseen realm. Believers "in the unseen realm" have been ruling with Christ in the affairs of men for over 2000 years now. Yeshua's kingdom IS NOT of our physical realm, He resides in the unseen realm, therefore, we will reside in the unseen realm and rule from it.

God Bless.

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