The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

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mattrose
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by mattrose » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:04 pm

I apologize if my tone came across wrong.

I didn't mean 'boring' like 'you guys shouldn't even bother talking about this'

I was trying to stress that, in my opinion, the New Testament emphasis is not on the Intermediate State... it's on Resurrection Day. It seems to me that a disproportionate amount of doctrinal discussion has been put on the former. I think there are TONS of Christians that have ONLY heard about the intermediate state and don't even realize that there's going to be a New Earth with resurrection bodies.

steve7150
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve7150 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:06 am

I was trying to stress that, in my opinion, the New Testament emphasis is not on the Intermediate State... it's on Resurrection Day. It seems to me that a disproportionate amount of doctrinal discussion has been put on the former. I think there are TONS of Christians that have ONLY heard about the intermediate state and don't even realize that there's going to be a New Earth with resurrection bodies.

http://www.matthew94.blogspot.com







You are right about this but on the other hand my mother in law recently passed at the age of 93. She was unafraid to die and believed she was going directly to be with the Lord. She indicated that she saw the Lord in her last moments and it was comforting to her and her children. There was a memorial for her and four people including myself were able to reference in a eulogy about her being in heaven now which has a certain appeal to many people.

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Paidion
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:31 pm

Matt wrote:I was trying to stress that, in my opinion, the New Testament emphasis is not on the Intermediate State... it's on Resurrection Day. It seems to me that a disproportionate amount of doctrinal discussion has been put on the former. I think there are TONS of Christians that have ONLY heard about the intermediate state and don't even realize that there's going to be a New Earth with resurrection bodies.
I appreciate your emphasis on the resurrection! Indeed, that is the very reason I think it is important to understand that there is no intermediate state. You die, and then are raised in the resurrection. If there is no resurrection, as Paul wrote, we might as well eat, drink, and be merry (with the implication that there is nothing else).

On the other hand, I have noticed that those who emphasize going to heaven at death tend to minimize the resurrection. And I can understand why. If we are freed from our fleshly bodies; our souls are set free from our bodies; we "fly away" (as the gnostics emphasized, and as we see in some popular hymns) then the resurrection doesn't seem of much value—just attaching an immortal body to our spirits. But why not just continue forever as a disembodied spirit? What's so important about getting a body if we don't need it. Indeed, some seem to think taking off to heaven at death IS the resurrection. I've often heard preachers who believe this quote I Cor 15 at funerals to mean, not the resurrection, but going to heaven at death.

So this is why this topic is important to me. When we realize, as Paul did, that if there's no resurrection, there's no after-life, then the resurrection will be our emphasis.

In his long discussion with the Jews, Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.), said:
If you have fallen in which some who are called Christians, but who ... say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians...
Paidion

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dizerner

Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dizerner » Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:09 pm

I'm still not convinced. It's hard to reconcile with v. 6 "and knowing that remaining at home in the body, we are away from home with the Lord." If Paul really viewed some bodily construct as necessary for any interaction of the soul, I don't see how he would say this.

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve7150 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:56 pm

If there is no resurrection, as Paul wrote, we might as well eat, drink, and be merry (with the implication that there is nothing else).









You seem to be adding things to the discussion that only you are concerned about. Clearly the resurrection is the most important event concerning eternal life since that's when we gain immortality.
I'm not aware of anyone disputing this so why you make it an "either or" proposition with" going to be with the Lord" when we die simply escapes me. Paul made several statements that indicate he was perplexed about staying or going. He wanted to go but it was more needful for him to stay, he was in a real time dilemma. No one without a presupposition would dream Paul meant anything other then a contemporaneous problem.

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Paidion
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:16 pm

Hi Dizerner,

[quote="You{]I'm still not convinced. It's hard to reconcile with v. 6 "and knowing that remaining at home in the body, we are away from home with the Lord." If Paul really viewed some bodily construct as necessary for any interaction of the soul, I don't see how he would say this.[/quote]

I explained it in my post. But if you don't get it, you don't get it.

Hi Steve 7150,
You wrote:No one without a presupposition would dream Paul meant anything other then a contemporaneous problem.
I'm not sure what you are saying, but I think you mean that in view of the problems in his day, Paul was saying that it would be better to die and be with the Lord. If that is what you are saying, I agree.

But maybe you are saying that Paul meant he would be with the Lord the same day he died. If that were the case, it couldn't be a presupposition with me. For my mother and siblings taught me from childhood that Christians went to heaven immediately at death. And all the churches I attended from childhood until I was 30 taught the same. So what would be the origin of any presupposition? I arrived at this position from scripture study alone. No individuals or church groups planted the idea in my mind.
Paidion

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dwilkins
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dwilkins » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:31 pm

dizerner wrote:I'm still not convinced. It's hard to reconcile with v. 6 "and knowing that remaining at home in the body, we are away from home with the Lord." If Paul really viewed some bodily construct as necessary for any interaction of the soul, I don't see how he would say this.
(ESV)
2Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

It seems to me that Paul is saying while in his flesh body he is separated from God, but he'd rather be "at home" with the Lord. He isn't necessarily saying that to be "at home" is to have put on the resurrection body that would be made available at the parousia and resurrection (a body made of spirit according to 1st Cor. 15). Remember, there is a large audience of souls surrounding the throne in heaven who haven't yet experienced the resurrection.

Doug

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Paidion
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:17 pm

Hi Doug,
You wrote:It seems to me that Paul is saying while in his flesh body he is separated from God, but he'd rather be "at home" with the Lord. He isn't necessarily saying that to be "at home" is to have put on the resurrection body that would be made available at the parousia and resurrection (a body made of spirit according to 1st Cor. 15).
If it isn't necessarily that, what is it then? Is he saying his spirit drops his body of flesh and soars to heaven to be with God? If so, I don't see how that fits his statement in
1 Cor.15 :16-18 "For if the dead are not raised, ...then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."
In what sense would they have perished, if they flew off to heaven?
And 1 Cor.15: 32 "If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
The implication is that if the dead are not raised, there is no afterlife. But there would be an afterlife if we take off to heaven immediately after death.
Remember, there is a large audience of souls surrounding the throne in heaven who haven't yet experienced the resurrection.
No, I don't remember that. Where do you get that information?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwilkins
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dwilkins » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:28 pm

Paidion wrote:
If it isn't necessarily that, what is it then? Is he saying his spirit drops his body of flesh and soars to heaven to be with God? If so, I don't see how that fits his statement in
1 Cor.15 :16-18 "For if the dead are not raised, ...then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."

In what sense would they have perished, if they flew off to heaven?

And 1 Cor.15: 32 "If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
The implication is that if the dead are not raised, there is no afterlife. But there would be an afterlife if we take off to heaven immediately after death.
1st Cor. 15 is crystal clear that people are raised with a body of pneumas.

1 Corinthians 15:42-50 (ESV)
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Before that, the righteous dead are described as souls under the alter of heaven. They appear to be able to see God and the events in heaven, but their final vindication at the parousia and resurrection hasn't happened yet:

Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve7150 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:33 pm

The implication is that if the dead are not raised, there is no afterlife.











Why look for implications, Paul said without the resurrection there is no immortality. You seem to think that immortality is not the main issue.

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