AD70 - Father`s will versus Son`s?

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Ian
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AD70 - Father`s will versus Son`s?

Post by Ian » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:55 pm

Father forgive them, they don`t know what they`re doing
And yet in AD70, all hell broke loose in Jerusalem. Clearly he knew what was coming to them but he still prayed this prayer. But they were not forgiven.

Did God supercede the will of HIs Son on the Cross? I`ve not heard this addressed by Steve. I imagine he has, though haven`t unearthed where.

What think y`all?

dizerner

Re: AD70 - Father`s will versus Son`s?

Post by dizerner » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:11 pm

He was talking about the soldiers, not all Israel.

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Paidion
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Re: AD70 - Father`s will versus Son`s?

Post by Paidion » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:04 pm

Jesus was talking about neither all Israel nor the Roman soldiers. He was talking about those Jews who had Him put to death by means of the Roman soldiers. Later, under the instructions of Peter, these very Jews repented and were forgiven. That's when Jesus' prayer to the Father to forgive them, was answered. True forgiveness is always a response to repentance.

On another occasion, Jesus said, "Watch yourselves! If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” (Luke 17:3,4)

So now you may ask, when did those Jews repent? The ones who had Jesus put to death? Here is what Peter said to them:
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men!" (Acts 2:22)
Then he said some other important things to them, including the fact that God raised Jesus from the dead.
He concluded his speech with these words:
"Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Verse 36)
How did Peter's hearers respond to this? They were deeply convicted for having had their Messiah put to death.
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” (Verse 37)
And here is what Peter told them to do:
“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness [or 'forsaking'] of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Verse 38)
How many of them took this advice? About 3000 of them. And they were added to the Assembly of Disciples. (Verse 41).
And so Jesus prayer was answered! Those who had Jesus put to death were forgiven!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Ian
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Re: AD70 - Father`s will versus Son`s?

Post by Ian » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:31 am

Thank you Paidion. Good answer.

And yes, your underlined part was relevant.

dizerner

Re: AD70 - Father`s will versus Son`s?

Post by dizerner » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:38 am

It's not a good answer at all. The Jews who had Jesus put to death are the Pharisees. If you actually study the Gospels instead of pasting in completely unrelated verses, you'd understand their spiritual position at the time they were hardened enough to deliberately kill Christ. The Pharisees who crucified Christ would be found nowhere near Pentecost. They were not "brothers.."

Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
...but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "-- because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

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Homer
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Re: AD70 - Father`s will versus Son`s?

Post by Homer » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:19 am

Dizerner wrote:
The Pharisees who crucified Christ would be found nowhere near Pentecost. They were not "brothers.."
I'm with Paidion 100% regarding what he wrote; I would have said the same thing. What scriptural support is there to say the Pharisees would not have witnessed Peter's sermon? They were certainly curious about religious matters. We are informed they went out to hear John the Baptist (Matthew 3:7) and we read of them being in the church, participants at the council at Jerusalem:

Acts 15:5 (NASB)

5. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

As far as "brothers" goes it seems obvious that Peter was using the word in the general sense. The Old Testament was the only scripture they had at the time of Pentecost and there are clear references in the OT to the word "brothers" being applied to enemies:

Deuteronomy 2:4 (NASB)

4. and command the people, saying, “You will pass through the territory of your brothers the sons of Esau who live in Seir; and they will be afraid of you. So be very careful;

Isaiah 66:5 (NASB)

5. Hear the word of the Lord, you who tremble at His word:
“Your brothers who hate you, who exclude you for My name’s sake,
Have said, ‘Let the Lord be glorified, that we may see your joy.’
But they will be put to shame.

Our Lord's prayer was answered.

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Paidion
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Re: AD70 - Father`s will versus Son`s?

Post by Paidion » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:41 pm

Thanks Ian and Homer.

It was usual for Jewish men to address each other as "Brother." So Peter addressed his fellow Jews as "Brothers". I am not sure whether or not that is the current practice among modern Jews.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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