Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

User avatar
jaydam
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by jaydam » Wed May 11, 2016 1:12 am

Jacob, you say "I want to understand what the new covenant is."

Then immediately say, "I understood the new covenant first, without understanding what the Law is."

You really need to step back, take a pause, and gather your thoughts as you have many issues with your thinking which do no even allow for reasoned discussion - the quotes I give being one of the most obvious examples.

You blatantly contradict yourself. Either you want to understand the new covenant, or you did understand it first.

If you claim you want to understand it, then hear the people that are trying to explain it.

If you claim you already did understand it, then it explains why you're not listening because you think you already have it figured out.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Wed May 11, 2016 8:05 am

dizerner wrote:I don't think you a have a Biblical understanding of the Law at all, but I don't mean to be rude. Maybe you think I'm totally lost about what the Bible really teaches about Law too. I do spend many, many years studying and praying about this. But I'm too tired now to continue, plus it seems you don't accept the Scriptures I give you, so without a willingness to meekly receive the implanted Word which is able to save the soul, one has rejected the Word of God. I think that's a good place to start, really think and pray "Am I accepting what Scripture is actually saying, or am I arguing with it?" Thanks for the chat.
I actually study Torah on a weekly basis.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Wed May 11, 2016 8:08 am

jaydam wrote:Jacob, you say "I want to understand what the new covenant is."

Then immediately say, "I understood the new covenant first, without understanding what the Law is."

You really need to step back, take a pause, and gather your thoughts as you have many issues with your thinking which do no even allow for reasoned discussion - the quotes I give being one of the most obvious examples.

You blatantly contradict yourself. Either you want to understand the new covenant, or you did understand it first.

If you claim you want to understand it, then hear the people that are trying to explain it.

If you claim you already did understand it, then it explains why you're not listening because you think you already have it figured out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The new covenant was promised by God to the house of Israel and the house of Judah through the prophet Jeremiah. Jesus said of Himself this is the new covenant in My blood.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by steve » Wed May 11, 2016 9:59 am

As a weary observer of (and sometimes participant in) this conversation, I would suggest that there is no actual communication taking place across the aisle between Jacob and those of us who are trying to answer his question. Our answers do not register with him, and, frankly, his question has not been distilled into a clear inquiry that allows for a clear answer. Here are some thoughts and questions I have for Jacob:

Am I correct in taking your position to be as follows: "We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus—however, since being saved brings about an obedient life in us, is it the Torah (or something else) that defines what we are expected to obey?"

I have made valiant attempts to grasp what it is you are wanting to know (or perhaps you have not posted out of a desire to learn anything, but only to teach or declare something to the rest of us, in the guise of a query?). The summary I have given above strikes me as the probable matter you are wishing to raise for discussion. Perhaps you have not realized that you have not stated the question clearly. I receive this impression from the fact that you have separately sent me several "drafts" of what is apparently the same question, in what seems to be an attempt to get your point across more accurately. Sadly, (call me dull) I am still puzzled at trying to ascertain your intended point.

If I have not summarized your position correctly, above, then I am at a total loss to make sense of your question. Yet, if I have summarized it properly, then I, and others, have answered the question a number of times. I do not expect that everyone will agree with my answers, but where there is disagreement, I would prefer that my correspondent, instead of pretending not to understand and simply repeating the question, would engage the points I have made, showing, if possible, that there is a better way of understanding the scriptural case upon which my understanding is based.

By simply asking the same question, you give the (probably false) impression that you are hoping to learn the answer, and that no answer has yet been provided. Despite that impression, however, I am beginning to think that your repetition of the question is really saying, "I don't like the answer you gave. I will keep asking the question until your answer changes." If you would like for my answer to change, there is one way you can guarantee such a result—and that is not by simply asking again until you think I have gotten it "right." You may have noticed, my answer has not changed at all whenever you have asked.

The way to change my mind would be to demonstrate that the scriptures, when taken as a whole and when exegeted correctly, affirm something different from what I have heretofore thought them to teach. I give you every opportunity to do this. The closest thing you have done (repeatedly) is to cite Matthew 5:17, which (in your translation) says, "I did not come to abolish the law..."

You cannot imagine that I have failed to take this verse into consideration, as I have discussed it with you every time you quote it. Remember? Here, again, you act as if I have said nothing to the point, and simply repeat the citation—just as you keep repeating your question.

I have never denied, nor felt uncomfortable with, the statement that Jesus did not come to "destroy" the law (a better translation). My beliefs must take into account everything Jesus said, if I am to be a disciple. What Jesus said about Himself and the Law is, potentially, a very defining statement concerning His entire mission. Therefore, I have looked carefully at both parts of His statement. He said, a) that He did not come to destroy the Law, and b) that He came to fulfill it. You lay heavy stress on the first of these points, but seem weak on the second.

Your theological position appears to find no ramifications of the second statement. Certainly, a fulfilled law is not unchanged from an unfulfilled law—just as an adult man is not unchanged from a male child. The man has not "abolished" the child—he has outgrown him. The boy anticipates the man. Where there is the man, there is no longer the boy—but that does not mean the man "destroyed" the boy. "Destruction" is a hostile term. When Paul (like you or me) "became a man," he "put away childish things." This transformation did not signal any hostility that Paul had toward his childhood. Christ brought the law to its maturity, or completeness. In doing so, He definitely "put away" the childish things that the law contained (e.g., circumcision, animal sacrifice, food restrictions, holy days, places, objects, etc.). Paul himself associates the law with childhood, which has been superseded by adult privilege in the Spirit (Gal.4:1-7).

Hebrews also insists that "there is a change of the Law" (Hebrews 7:12), due to the superseding of the Aaronic priesthood by the Melchisedek priesthood. Do you deny that the Law has been "changed" (as opposed to "destroyed"). Do you reject the book of Hebrews (as you appear to), or merely neglect it? If you allow, with scripture, that the Law has been "changed," what changes, exactly, do you allow it to have undergone, in your position? What impact has the fulfillment of the Law, in your view, had on the nature of righteous living?

If you do not accept my explanations, that is your prerogative. Feel free to suggest better ones. However, in the absence of such, do not simply parrot Matthew 5:17 endlessly, as if the very citation makes your point. If you feel that it makes a point other than that which I have offered, then provide biblical reasons for saying so, or simply drop the subject. Mere repetition of the same statements that have been answered does not advance the discussion.

You wrote:
I actually study Torah on a weekly basis.
To this I have three questions:

1) Are you saying it as if to establish your expertise on the Torah?

2) Why so seldom? David recommended the meditation on the Torah "day and night" (Psalm 1:2).

3) Do you spend more time studying the Torah in a Jewish framework than in a Christian framework? It is plain that the Jewish framework reads the Law with a "veiled" heart, failing to take into consideration the illumination brought by Christ and the ministers of the New Covenant (2 Cor.3:11-18). This is why Jesus had to open His disciples' understanding, "that they might comprehend the scriptures" (Luke 24:45). This would have been entirely unnecessary, if the rabbis had understood and taught the scriptures properly. How does your reading and application of the Torah differ from that of the best rabbis? It seems that it should.

dizerner

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by dizerner » Wed May 11, 2016 10:16 am

JacobMartinMertens wrote:
dizerner wrote:I don't think you a have a Biblical understanding of the Law at all, but I don't mean to be rude. Maybe you think I'm totally lost about what the Bible really teaches about Law too. I do spend many, many years studying and praying about this. But I'm too tired now to continue, plus it seems you don't accept the Scriptures I give you, so without a willingness to meekly receive the implanted Word which is able to save the soul, one has rejected the Word of God. I think that's a good place to start, really think and pray "Am I accepting what Scripture is actually saying, or am I arguing with it?" Thanks for the chat.
I actually study Torah on a weekly basis.
I'm glad but it won't save you unless you do what it says--perfectly.

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Wed May 11, 2016 11:13 am

steve wrote:As a weary observer of (and sometimes participant in) this conversation, I would suggest that there is no actual communication taking place across the aisle between Jacob and those of us who are trying to answer his question. Our answers do not register with him, and, frankly, his question has not been distilled into a clear inquiry that allows for a clear answer. Here are some thoughts and questions I have for Jacob:

Am I correct in taking your position to be as follows: "We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus—however, since being saved brings about an obedient life in us, is it the Torah (or something else) that defines what we are expected to obey?"

I have made valiant attempts to grasp what it is you are wanting to know (or perhaps you have not posted out of a desire to learn anything, but only to teach or declare something to the rest of us, in the guise of a query?). The summary I have given above strikes me as the probable matter you are wishing to raise for discussion. Perhaps you have not realized that you have not stated the question clearly. I receive this impression from the fact that you have separately sent me several "drafts" of what is apparently the same question, in what seems to be an attempt to get your point across more accurately. Sadly, (call me dull) I am still puzzled at trying to ascertain your intended point.

If I have not summarized your position correctly, above, then I am at a total loss to make sense of your question. Yet, if I have summarized it properly, then I, and others, have answered the question a number of times. I do not expect that everyone will agree with my answers, but where there is disagreement, I would prefer that my correspondent, instead of pretending not to understand and simply repeating the question, would engage the points I have made, showing, if possible, that there is a better way of understanding the scriptural case upon which my understanding is based.

By simply asking the same question, you give the (probably false) impression that you are hoping to learn the answer, and that no answer has yet been provided. Despite that impression, however, I am beginning to think that your repetition of the question is really saying, "I don't like the answer you gave. I will keep asking the question until your answer changes." If you would like for my answer to change, there is one way you can guarantee such a result—and that is not by simply asking again until you think I have gotten it "right." You may have noticed, my answer has not changed at all whenever you have asked.

The way to change my mind would be to demonstrate that the scriptures, when taken as a whole and when exegeted correctly, affirm something different from what I have heretofore thought them to teach. I give you every opportunity to do this. The closest thing you have done (repeatedly) is to cite Matthew 5:17, which (in your translation) says, "I did not come to abolish the law..."

You cannot imagine that I have failed to take this verse into consideration, as I have discussed it with you every time you quote it. Remember? Here, again, you act as if I have said nothing to the point, and simply repeat the citation—just as you keep repeating your question.

I have never denied, nor felt uncomfortable with, the statement that Jesus did not come to "destroy" the law (a better translation). My beliefs must take into account everything Jesus said, if I am to be a disciple. What Jesus said about Himself and the Law is, potentially, a very defining statement concerning His entire mission. Therefore, I have looked carefully at both parts of His statement. He said, a) that He did not come to destroy the Law, and b) that He came to fulfill it. You lay heavy stress on the first of these points, but seem weak on the second.

Your theological position appears to find no ramifications of the second statement. Certainly, a fulfilled law is not unchanged from an unfulfilled law—just as an adult man is not unchanged from a male child. The man has not "abolished" the child—he has outgrown him. The boy anticipates the man. Where there is the man, there is no longer the boy—but that does not mean the man "destroyed" the boy. "Destruction" is a hostile term. When Paul (like you or me) "became a man," he "put away childish things." This transformation did not signal any hostility that Paul had toward his childhood. Christ brought the law to its maturity, or completeness. In doing so, He definitely "put away" the childish things that the law contained (e.g., circumcision, animal sacrifice, food restrictions, holy days, places, objects, etc.). Paul himself associates the law with childhood, which has been superseded by adult privilege in the Spirit (Gal.4:1-7).

Hebrews also insists that "there is a change of the Law" (Hebrews 7:12), due to the superseding of the Aaronic priesthood by the Melchisedek priesthood. Do you deny that the Law has been "changed" (as opposed to "destroyed"). Do you reject the book of Hebrews (as you appear to), or merely neglect it? If you allow, with scripture, that the Law has been "changed," what changes, exactly, do you allow it to have undergone, in your position? What impact has the fulfillment of the Law, in your view, had on the nature of righteous living?

If you do not accept my explanations, that is your prerogative. Feel free to suggest better ones. However, in the absence of such, do not simply parrot Matthew 5:17 endlessly, as if the very citation makes your point. If you feel that it makes a point other than that which I have offered, then provide biblical reasons for saying so, or simply drop the subject. Mere repetition of the same statements that have been answered does not advance the discussion.

You wrote:
I actually study Torah on a weekly basis.
To this I have three questions:

1) Are you saying it as if to establish your expertise on the Torah?

2) Why so seldom? David recommended the meditation on the Torah "day and night" (Psalm 1:2).

3) Do you spend more time studying the Torah in a Jewish framework than in a Christian framework? It is plain that the Jewish framework reads the Law with a "veiled" heart, failing to take into consideration the illumination brought by Christ and the ministers of the New Covenant (2 Cor.3:11-18). This is why Jesus had to open His disciples' understanding, "that they might comprehend the scriptures" (Luke 24:45). This would have been entirely unnecessary, if the rabbis had understood and taught the scriptures properly. How does your reading and application of the Torah differ from that of the best rabbis? It seems that it should.
I believe that each and every one of us should know what God's commands are and observe them. Our obedience to God's commands may be according to what God has required of all Christians, or it may be more. I am not sure if people are telling me to not obey old covenant commands of God. If so, I don't know what new covenant commands of God are. The Torah and the Law of Moses explain the terms of the covenant, and God's commands are spelled out in detail. Where people have asked questions, there is commentary. It is all about doing what God wants us to do. The Torah is for the Jew, the people of Israel. It is also for the Gentile to learn from. All those in the church should be taught of Jesus. Jesus observed and taught the Law. Some say this was before the Law was abolished when He died for us, or rose from the dead, or when the second temple was destroyed. I believe Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. We (beginning with the house of Israel and the house of Judah and now including Gentiles, or with Gentiles grafted in) have the new covenant in Jesus. What law is written on our hearts? The Law is to be our meditation day and night. The people broke the covenant, not God. So God made a new covenant. With the change of the priesthood (Jesus is our priest) there is a change of law. Is this a change to the law, a change in law, or a change of law? The New Testament has 1050 commands. But what commands are a part of the new covenant? What law has been written on our hearts? Is it Torah Law? Jesus taught the Law, and not even Paul spoke against it. It is God's Law. He is the one who gave it. It came from Him. Anyone can study Torah.

I study in a Jewish framework, but I discuss Torah with Christians usually because they don't know what it says or they have not brought it up with me. I have provided a place for fellow Christians to study with me, and ask questions, on Facebook. I can learn from my Rabbi. I am actually studying Torah on my own throughout the week, and there is also a weekly Shabbat service with Torah reading, so we do get to hear Moses read each Sabbath. Studying with others throughout the week is welcome. I also have a Christian pastor. I grew up in the church, but was not taught Torah in the church. The church I grew up in had elders and teachers but no Senior Pastor / Pastor. When it came to the 10 commandments it was at least as if there are only 9. The church I currently attend has a Sunday service.

I see no reason to disagree with teaching from the Torah, in addition to reading it myself. I am currently on the one-year Torah reading cycle, though I used to be on the three-year cycle. I study the Torah daily as much as I can. The Torah is read each Sabbath at the congregation I attend, so as long as I can make it there I get to hear Moses read each week. This is one way to study Torah.

When I think of God's commands, I see no way to say this does not include old covenant commands. If those in the new covenant only observe new covenant commands or are only required to observe new covenant commands, then we need to know this and why. Growing up obedience to God was frowned upon as trying to obtain salvation by works or perfect oneself by the flesh. But, I have concluded by reading Paul only (Isolating Paul and what he taught) that those who have faith are saved and can obey God's commands as He wants us to do.

No one is saved by the Law. We are saved by Jesus. God wants us to obey Him. This involves obedience to God's commands.

I believe that even in regard to old covenant commands no one should feign obedience. Either you are obeying a given command of God or you are not. I believe it is possible to obey God's commands.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Wed May 11, 2016 11:14 am

dizerner wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:
dizerner wrote:I don't think you a have a Biblical understanding of the Law at all, but I don't mean to be rude. Maybe you think I'm totally lost about what the Bible really teaches about Law too. I do spend many, many years studying and praying about this. But I'm too tired now to continue, plus it seems you don't accept the Scriptures I give you, so without a willingness to meekly receive the implanted Word which is able to save the soul, one has rejected the Word of God. I think that's a good place to start, really think and pray "Am I accepting what Scripture is actually saying, or am I arguing with it?" Thanks for the chat.
I actually study Torah on a weekly basis.
I'm glad but it won't save you unless you do what it says--perfectly.
Jesus is the only person to observe it perfectly, and He has saved me.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by steve » Wed May 11, 2016 12:04 pm

Jacob,

Thank you for clarifying that you never came here with an honest question at all, but you have a position to promote. This is all right, and very much welcome at this forum. We are glad to have people of differing viewpoints present their case and invite response.

However, when you pretend that you are seeking insight, you obligate me, and others, to invest time that could have been better spent, in answering a question you never had, and upon which you have decided in advance to reject answers other than your own. Again, thanks for finally making this clear. I wish you had done so at the beginning, before I wasted so much precious time on what is obviously a hopeless (and unwelcome) endeavor.

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Wed May 11, 2016 1:43 pm

steve wrote:Jacob,

Thank you for clarifying that you never came here with an honest question at all, but you have a position to promote. This is all right, and very much welcome at this forum. We are glad to have people of differing viewpoints present their case and invite response.

However, when you pretend that you are seeking insight, you obligate me, and others, to invest time that could have been better spent, in answering a question you never had, and upon which you have decided in advance to reject answers other than your own. Again, thanks for finally making this clear. I wish you had done so at the beginning, before I wasted so much precious time on what is obviously a hopeless (and unwelcome) endeavor.
Maybe I am still making my way through other people's views while at the same time now I have presented what is viewed as a position, and certainly that it is or can be. I am not beyond learning. After being saved we are obedient to God's commands even as we seek the salvation of others.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
morbo3000
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 9:05 pm
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: Should we observe all the commands from Jesus' ministry?

Post by morbo3000 » Wed May 11, 2016 2:46 pm

Jacob does the same thing on another board. They ignore him now. Best to do the same thing here.

The body of Christ is always more susceptible to allow toxic people to distract from the mission because our overarching ethic is grace. Toxic people take advantage of that and are often allowed to run rampant doing untold damage. Jacob hasn't been given that liberty here. But his modus operandi is a morality tale for us all. Imagine the people who live around him and how he must have them chasing their tail.

Don't let his type distract from the mission in our local churches. And worse do damage to believers who hunger to please God and could be led astray by his bondage to the law.

Don't feed the trolls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
JeffreyLong.net
Jesusna.me
@30thirteen

Post Reply

Return to “General Bible Discussion”