What to do when they deny?

Michelle · Post by **Michelle** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:56 am

What if the wife is not lying when she says there has been no adultery? She says, "We're just friends," but denies a sexual relationship, and she's telling the truth. I'm not a pastor, a pastor's wife, nor even close friends to a pastor, but as a sister in the Lord, I would still say that her relationship with the man in question is inappropriate. If she asked me, I would counsel her to end her friendship; it's not worth losing or damaging your marriage over. What if she actually followed my stellar advice and ended the friendship, but then her husband took that as further proof that adultery had been committed? Maybe that wouldn't happen...I don't know. I guess I'm wondering if there is something virtuous about believing a person unless you are absolutely sure she is lying.

RND · Post by **RND** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:31 am

I can't imagine the level of insecurity of this husband quite frankly that you've hypothesized about Michelle, with absolutely no trust for the spouse he supposedly loves. A relationship devoid of any trust is not much of a relationship. In fact without trust there can be no love in my mind.

steve · Post by **steve** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:30 pm

RND,

Are you married? Just wondering. You sound like an outsider to the experience pontificating about things you do not know much about (again).

It is entirely possible (and virtuous, too) to love somebody that you have no reason to trust. Love is unconditional. Trust is earned.

mattrose · Post by **mattrose** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:31 pm

Thanks for all the feedback.

Steve has correctly summarized the issue I'm thinking about

The problem would seem to be how guilt of an affair can be determined without a verbal confession.

And I think, perhaps, the best advice given was to pray that the sin, if present, is found out... that evidence emerges... that God reveals the guilt of the guilty party. Perhaps patience is the best solution to the problem.

Michelle · Post by **Michelle** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:02 pm

RND wrote:I can't imagine the level of insecurity of this husband quite frankly that you've hypothesized about Michelle, with absolutely no trust for the spouse he supposedly loves. A relationship devoid of any trust is not much of a relationship. In fact without trust there can be no love in my mind.

Well, I agree that my scenario is probably far-fetched.

darinhouston · Post by **darinhouston** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:49 pm

Would it not be wise for the elder in this case to ask the wife to discontinue the relationship outside of shared events, etc., with the husband (or at least a "private" relationship outside of larger events, etc)? Whether there is an affair or not, playing with smoke is something to avoid, I think. And if there is a question of reputation (legitimate or otherwise) that could tarnish the body of Christ (and the marital relationship), who is she to hold to some "right" to be friends with this individual at the risk of the marriage and/or church? In my opinion, whether he's right or not, the wife should submit to the wishes of the husband in this matter, and if she does not, it is the role of the elder or church to support this point of submission. The question would then be what to do if she refused to submit even to the eldership or congregation at large? I would take that as any other matter of sin, and church discipline is pretty clear on that subject.

However, if this is the correct approach, it does beg the question of how these matters should be resolved even in an overt admitted yet unrepented of sin by one spouse -- how do you effect church discipline of an unrepentent spouse ? I mean -- does the other spouse (and kids, if any) continue to fellowship without the other spouse? I've never seen this (perhaps because I've never seen church discipline actually utilized in an open way as an example in even clear cut ways).

steve · Post by **steve** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:32 pm

I agree with Darin. And I also think that the husband should similarly submit to the wife's wishes that he break off friendships that cause her concern. This has nothing to do with the general question of the wife's submission to her husband, but rather with the mutual commitment made by both that "forsaking all others" they would "cling only" to each other.

When church discipline does occur, I do not think it incumbent upon children and relatives to shun the one under discipline. There are different duties that are involved in different relationships. I believe that excommunication simply refers to the person's lack of being welcomed in the fellowship of the church. It would also apply to fellowship outside of the church with individual church members (apart from those who have other duties to live with them). For such persons, it is forbidden "even to eat with such person" (1 Cor.5:11).

RND · Post by **RND** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:47 pm

steve wrote:Are you married? Just wondering. You sound like an outsider to the experience pontificating about things you do not know much about (again).

Yes Steve, I'm married. 20+ years. I've never "distrusted" my wife ever, nor would I stop loving here if she ever strayed. She's been gone across country, hung out with other "men" and I've never worried or even wondered if she's ever been "unfaithful."

It is entirely possible (and virtuous, too) to love somebody that you have no reason to trust. Love is unconditional. Trust is earned.

I disagree. Trust isn't earned. It's a given. After all, didn't Christ "trust" the Father's will be done on the cross? Did the Father have to "earn" Christ's trust or was it just a given?

1 Corinthians 13 says nothing about have to "earn" trust in love. It's a given.

1Cr 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

Love "always trusts" without asking for anything in return.

RND · Post by **RND** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:49 pm

Michelle wrote:
RND wrote:I can't imagine the level of insecurity of this husband quite frankly that you've hypothesized about Michelle, with absolutely no trust for the spouse he supposedly loves. A relationship devoid of any trust is not much of a relationship. In fact without trust there can be no love in my mind.
Well, I agree that my scenario is probably far-fetched.

Maybe, but it still makes the mind work, and think. Which I think was your intention. Also, I don't want you to think I was shooting it down. Frankly you described lots of husbands in this country.

RND · Post by **RND** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:53 pm

mattrose wrote:Thanks for all the feedback.

Steve has correctly summarized the issue I'm thinking about
The problem would seem to be how guilt of an affair can be determined without a verbal confession.
And I think, perhaps, the best advice given was to pray that the sin, if present, is found out... that evidence emerges... that God reveals the guilt of the guilty party. Perhaps patience is the best solution to the problem.

What affair? The "spouse" in your story denies he/she was involved in an affair.

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