Outrage @ Outrage

Right & Wrong
User avatar
_Homer
Posts: 639
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Brownsville

Post by _Homer » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:44 am

Here is a link to an interesting article that has implications regarding homosexual propaganda and their proclivities:

[The Luxurious Growth]

One comment in the article:
Studies designed to link specific genes to behavior have failed to find anything larger than very small associations. It’s now clear that one gene almost never leads to one trait. Instead, a specific trait may be the result of the interplay of hundreds of different genes interacting with an infinitude of environmental factors.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
A Berean

User avatar
_JC
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:18 pm

Post by _JC » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:34 am

JC wrote:
I understand the argument that if Christians have a voice, they should use it. I agree with that, but disagree with how that voice should be used. When asked for my opinion on gay-marriage I usually just say it has nothing to do with me.

Paidion wrote:
If asked your opinion on "partial-birth abortions" would you give the same answer?
Good Sir, I would not give the same answer because the church is not known for being involved with such practices, though our track record for sexual compromise is well known. The biblical principle I'm applying here is knowing "how to let my speech always be flavored with salt so that I may know how to answer each one" (Col 4:6). I treat people as human beings and not just a set of presumptions. As Greg Boyd likes to point out, the Christian response to abortion might be to assist a woman, financially or emotionally, to carry out her pregnancy.

Maybe if a woman felt confortable enough to confide in me that she was considering abortion (partial birth or otherwise) then I'd have the option to help her, possibly even adopting the child or paying for her to go full term. But that is a lot less convenient than callering her a murderer.... which doesn't help her baby. In our society, I doubt a woman considering abortion would confide in me because I'm a Christian. If that's the case, I don't have the option to help her.

My wife and I are currently in the process of adopting the baby of a relative who, if they didn't know we were interested in providing for the child, may have aborted on their own since they have no financial means to care for him. Such a thing, in my opinion, is the ultimate pro-life stance.... though it's by no means easy.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Paidion
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:42 pm
Location: Chapple, Ontario

Post by _Paidion » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:22 pm

I'm not sure why you are bringing up the matter of calling an aborting mother "a murderer". I know of no pro-life person who ever did that, and I had been involved with the pro-life movement for many years; my wife was president of the local chapter. The only time I have heard of such a thing is from the false accusations of those who support abortion as a possible "choice" for a pregnant woman.

I have also supported a local institution that does the very thing you advocate --- find non-abortion solutions for pregnant women.

I did not understand your opening statement:
Good Sir, I would not give the same answer because the church is not known for being involved with such practices...
I would think that if the church has not been involved with such practices, then you could confidently give the same answer, "That has nothing to do with me."

My major point in this whole discussion is that the church ought to be involved in working to prevent those cruel killings of children just before they are born. God instructed us to care for needy. If there any more needy group of people than those about to be painfully killed before they are born?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

User avatar
_Suzana
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 1:28 am
Location: Australia

Post by _Suzana » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:03 pm

Sue, I know you meant no offence…
Hi Paidion,

No worries, and thanks, it’s all good. (as my kids would say). Thank you for explaining; your wife is quite correct. Greetings Mrs Paidion! : )
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Sue

Avatar: with my grandson

User avatar
_Mort_Coyle
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Post by _Mort_Coyle » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:52 pm

I’d just like to quote from an Australian book written by someone who had struggled with the issue for years:

“…when true repentance was made, not only was I liberated but healing from the orientation itself became a reality.”*
The problem is that Bussee, Marks, Bogle and many others who were once part of "ex-gay" programs like Exodus made similar statements prior to lapsing back into homosexuality. These organizations have not produced any long-term follow-up reports to verify their claims. It appears that for most, the "healing" is temporary.
For myself, I would rather believe what God has revealed in his word. Nor would I judge those in the world, or think homosexual sin is any worse than any other sexual sin.
Bravo! This touches back on Matt's original point about all the outrage. Why aren't we more outraged that 20,000 children die every day from malnutrition and disease? Why aren't we more outraged about the atrocities in Darfur? Or that slavery still exists? Or that women and children are trafficked and forced into prostitution? Or that a young man is beaten to death in the heartland of America because he is gay? Rather than fixate on sin ("theirs" or "ours"), why aren't we fixated on justice? That's a golden thread that runs all through our Bibles!

Homer, the quote you provided harkens back to a discussion you and I had a few weeks ago. They will never find a "gay gene" (or a "left-handed gene" for that matter). Genetics, along with all of the other factors that make people the way they are, is much too complex for that.

I have a couple of questions for whoever cares to answer them:

Do you think Paul believed that the Earth was created in six literal days?
Do you believe the Earth was created in six literal days?

Do you think Paul believed that the Earth was only a few thousand years old?
Do you believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Steve
Posts: 1564
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:07 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Post by _Steve » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:08 pm

Danny,

You asked:
Do you think Paul believed that the Earth was created in six literal days?
Do you believe the Earth was created in six literal days?

Do you think Paul believed that the Earth was only a few thousand years old?
Do you believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old?

I'm going to answer a tentative "yes" to all four questions, though I don't think we will ever know for sure. What Paul thought on this was never expressed in his writings, and (more importantly) he never based any of his moral teachings on whatever he thought about the age of the earth. Therefore, if we believed one way or the other on any of your four questions, we would not find ourselves at odds with apostolic teaching.

If you are implying that Paul held views that have since been debunked by scientific discovery, I would not be surprised to find that you are correct, as Paul was probably the product of his times in many ways. However, I do not think that Paul was mistaken in his theological or moral teachings. If he was, then what has become of apostolic authority, and why did Jesus pick such an unreliable witness to speak on His behalf?

I also wanted to comment on the suggestion (made by others) that a Christian needn't be concerned about same-sex marriages, because "it doesn't affect us." I remember hearing a secular talk show host say something similar. He said, "How is my marriage endangered by allowing homosexuals to marry?"

This seemed to me as a typically narcissistic American comment. My marriage and my life may never be affected by what other people choose to do in this area (unless, of course, their actions bring God's judgment upon the society in which I live, affecting me, my children and my grandchildren). But when was I ever, as a Christian, encouraged to take a moral position based on how the matter affects me?

If the changing of the definition of marriage should deprive a whole future generation or more of the knowledge of what normal marriage and family life were created to be, our generation will have performed a social experiment the likes of which no society, pagan or Christian, has every attempted—with no certain knowledge of the safety of its outcome. It is so typical of our self-centered generation to pollute our children's world, to live on our children's inheritance, to seek short-term financial security at the expense of future generations of tax-payers, and to change the moral structure of the universe to please our lusts, without the slightest concern for the morally-mutant race that our descendants may become as a result.

Those who do these things cannot be said to be loving their neighbors—nor even their offspring. It is an attitude totally devoid of the love of Christ for humanity.

It is similarly unloving to the homosexual person for us simply to raise no protest against sinful behavior that is known to be self-destructive, that places him in a high-risk category for early death, and that (according to scripture) guarantees that he will never inherit the kingdom of God. Sin is bad for people. That is why a loving God, graciously revealed what is right (and safe) to do, and what is not. Those who love sinners will tell them these things (2 Cor.5:11).

Denying homosexuals permission to marry each other (or even to fornicate with each other) does indeed impose a great hardship upon them. Righteousness is like that—inconvenient. That's why Jesus said the path was difficult that leads to life. It is not unloving to ask homosexuals to make sacrifices in the area of immoral indulgence, unless we are unwilling to make similar sacrifices, as necessary. It costs something to live right—but it costs much more to do otherwise.

If Christians lose sight of these facts, we will soon convince ourselves that the pagans are right in viewing any mention of sin as a hate-crime. In our desire to "speak the truth in love," we must not neglect to speak the truth—or else we will be neglecting the love as well.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve

User avatar
_Mort_Coyle
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Post by _Mort_Coyle » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:03 pm

Hi Steve,

You picked up on what I was getting at: That Paul was a man of his time and culture, both of which were pre-scientific. My intent is not to imply, however, that this makes Paul's moral or theological teachings unreliable. Rather, that perhaps we try to make Paul speak to things that were completely unknown to him. One example of this would be the concept of homosexuality as an orientation, rather than a moral choice. Most likely, the forms of homosexuality that Paul knew of were related to pagan worship practices and to the Greco-Roman custom of pederasty. Both of which, we would all agree, were abominable. And both of which were practiced by otherwise heterosexual men. What was unlikely to be known by Paul or his contemporaries was the idea of two persons of an exclusively homosexual orientation living in a committed, loving, mutually respectful relationship.
Denying homosexuals permission to marry each other (or even to fornicate with each other) does indeed impose a great hardship upon them. Righteousness is like that—inconvenient.
True, but when we impose our standards of righteousness upon others, it becomes more than inconvenient. It becomes oppressive. I know in my own life, any genuine outward righteousness is but a manifestation of the inward working of the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_JC
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:18 pm

Post by _JC » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:27 am

Paidion, you live in Canada and I'm in the States. Perhaps there is a cultural gap here but your defensiveness is not warranted. I'm not attacking the pro-life group as I am pro-life myself. You've derailed this thread because it was talking about gay marriage, not abortion. They are not the same thing and you are comparing apples to elephants. Perhaps you think the response to one sin is the same for any sin. I do not.

I'm simply asking that we "clean house" on the church and in doing so, we gain the credibility to speak with authority on these issues. The body of Christ is joined to a harlot right now (speaking provincially here) and therefore has lost its distinct authority in the West. Maybe the saints in Canada are more holy and therefore can speak with such authority. I'm afraid that's not the case where I live.

I believe homosexual unions and abortions should never take place. Ever. But the solution, I think, is getting credibility back into the church so that we're known for outrageous love and holiness, rather than this inconsistent "outrage" we're known for today. The church should infect society with it's holiness but if the majority of those proclaiming Christ are not living holy themselves then we are the ones who've become infected by the society. That's the current state of the church in many parts of the world.

If you and Steve think were should comdemn sinners publically before cleaning up the sins of the church then how are we not in violation of Matthew 7? I know Jesus was addressing individuals in that verse but I can't see how it wouldn't apply to the body of Christ as well since we are one organism with many members. If the saints in China or India or Iran want to condemn sin in puclic, they probably have more credibility because culture hasn't infected them to such a large degree. In the West, it's almost a joke. If you think I'm being overly cynical, come visit me sometime and I'll tour you around my neck of the woods.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Paidion
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:42 pm
Location: Chapple, Ontario

Post by _Paidion » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:06 pm

If you and Steve think were should comdemn sinners publically before cleaning up the sins of the church then how are we not in violation of Matthew 7?
JC, how can you possibly assume that Steve and I are advocating the public condemnation of sinners? Can you not understand that what we oppose is a change by society of the definition of marriage? You sound as if you have been duped by the homosexual political agenda.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

User avatar
_JC
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:18 pm

Post by _JC » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:07 pm

Paidion, we're talking past one another. You and I both agree that ending homosexual unions is a good thing for society and those involved in such practices. However, the method by which that is accomplished is where we disagree. I'm not sure how I could be brainwashed by the homosexual politial agenda since I believe homosexuality is sinful behavior that should not be engaged in. The label of marriage is, of course, only important to the homosexual community because they feel it validates their lifestyle. But I'm not aware of any homosexuals who've committed their lives to Christ because a compromised church made signs and stood in front of a courthouse.

Unlike Mort, I believe Paul had Christ's approval in condemning this practice. But whenever Paul condemned homosexual relations, it was always in a list that contained many sins and not of lesser gravity. I find it odd that we'd single one of them out when many of the people protesting this sin are guilty of the others Paul mentioned.

I'm not convinced that the political process has the ability to change a man's heart and until hearts are changed, society will continue to devolve. We win the hearts of unbelievers by being their friend, then persuading them toward faith in Christ which leads to discipleship. If you know of a better way, I will listen.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

Post Reply

Return to “Ethics”