Vegetarianism
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_Anonymous
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Vegetarianism
I have been a practicing vegetarian for four years now. It is not for religious reasons really, but because I think that we are under obligation to be good stewards of the earth's resources, and many of the industrial farms practice animal cruelty. Chickens have their beaks burned off, cows are continually kept pregnant and have their calfs taken from them, not to mention all the hormones and anti-biotics injected in them. Christians that I know that consume meat seem to think that it is okay to do so because all "things are clean" now. But, I am not sure that pork was all of a sudden okay to eat (they carry parasites and trichonosis) by that statement, but rather ritual washing of food doesn't make for righteousness. Also, how do we explain Acts 15 when the Jerusalem council specifically talk about staying away from meat that is sacrificed to idols or strangled? Many of the industrial farm animals are killed with cruelty, and isn't the love of money a form of idolotry? It is all done for profit, not health reasons. I would like to hear thoughts about it. Thanks
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_JohnBarbour
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Vegetarianism
Dear Anon.
You are right to question what is happening in our world with regards to food. Many Christians seem unaware that there are problems out there.
A few points:
1) The New Testament teaches that we are at liberty to eat all foods. 1 Timothy 4:4,5 says with regard to food; "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." Remember, Jesus ate fish and served it to over 5000 people. He was not a vegetarian.
2) Liberty does not mean license. We must still excercise wisdom. Free range poultry and livestock are definitely healthier and as you say more humane. So are organic vegetables. Shell fish and other unclean food do tend to have greater risks associated with them.
3) We can sin with regards to food. I can think of two ways:
a)Gluttony
b)offending our brother (Romans 14)
I recommend you read an excellent book by Dr. Michael Jacobson entitled The Word on Health published by Moody Press
Keep studying and asking questions.
God be with you,
John Barbour
You are right to question what is happening in our world with regards to food. Many Christians seem unaware that there are problems out there.
A few points:
1) The New Testament teaches that we are at liberty to eat all foods. 1 Timothy 4:4,5 says with regard to food; "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." Remember, Jesus ate fish and served it to over 5000 people. He was not a vegetarian.
2) Liberty does not mean license. We must still excercise wisdom. Free range poultry and livestock are definitely healthier and as you say more humane. So are organic vegetables. Shell fish and other unclean food do tend to have greater risks associated with them.
3) We can sin with regards to food. I can think of two ways:
a)Gluttony
b)offending our brother (Romans 14)
I recommend you read an excellent book by Dr. Michael Jacobson entitled The Word on Health published by Moody Press
Keep studying and asking questions.
God be with you,
John Barbour
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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John Barbour
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_Anonymous
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People say that those who do not eat meat are weak on faith. I know that is what Paul said, but Paul also was not alive in a time of increased population, unbridled capitalism, sweatshop labor, resource exploitation, multi-national corporations, global warming, SUV's, fossil fuel issues, smog, air pollution, water pollution, envirnonmental waste, environmental racism, and on and on. If industrial farms weren't subsidized by the government, meat would be about $50 a pound because of the amount of water reseources, feed, etc. I don't eat meat not because I am weak in faith (and not because I love animals -- I can't stand them and I don't own any pets. They smell, break stuff, mess everywhere, and carry parasites -- everything that is wrong with humans also 
) I don't eat meat because for every pound of meat, we can grow 10 pounds of grain. If you have ever seen the World Vision commercials about all the starving children -- I think the Christian has to take seriously what eating meat contributes to. It is not because I am weak in faith, it is because I love the Master and take seriously his calls concerning the poor and hungry. I don't want to contribute to a problem that is already bad.
) I don't eat meat because for every pound of meat, we can grow 10 pounds of grain. If you have ever seen the World Vision commercials about all the starving children -- I think the Christian has to take seriously what eating meat contributes to. It is not because I am weak in faith, it is because I love the Master and take seriously his calls concerning the poor and hungry. I don't want to contribute to a problem that is already bad.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hello Anon.
I agree with John's comments (above) and with much of what you have to say as well. The problem with referring to oneself as "vegetarian" is that it is not really very descriptive of what your convictions are precisely.
To some, it would mean that the person thinks it immoral to kill and eat animals. Many times, this simply stems from world-view confusion, and a failure to see the difference in the nature and status of animals vis-a-vis humans. To these people, killing animals is an offense similar to murder, and eating animals is akin to caniballism. This is a position that, I believe, is in contrast to biblical Christianity, and is condemned as a false doctrine (1 Tim.4:1ff).
Others are vegetarians because they have become convinced that the human organism does not function optimally when fueled by animal products. They are concerned about the impact of meat (and sometimes eggs and dairy products) on cardiovascular health, energy levels, mental alertness, or other physiological concerns. These people are simply making a health choice on the same level as those who abstain from processed sugars, fatty foods, caffeine, etc. There is nothing about this position to be criticized, unless it is the scientific accuracy of the presuppositions about the unhealthiness of eating meat. This is not a matter for Christians to judge one another about.
There are others who avoid eating all meat, simply out of concern for Jewish ritualism. In order to be suited for Jewish consumption, meat had to come from a kosher species, properly butchered so as to drain all the blood, and not something offered to other gods. In Gentile societies, it was often impossible (or at least very difficult) to ascertain whether any given meat sold at the marketplace really was in compliance with these requirements, so some Jews in Gentile lands simply eliminated meat from their diets to make sure they did not inadvertantly become defiled by eating unclean meat. This was probably the vegetarianism practiced by those mentioned in Romans 14:2-4. Since the New Testament does not limit the meats that Christians eat to those that were kosher to the Jews, this concern would be unnecessary for Christians, but Paul is not critical of those who are scrupupous about it.
You seem, really, to be in yet another category. You do not profess to see the consumption of meat as immoral, though your abstinence is not entirely for health reasons either. There is clearly a conscience issue with you, but not the same one Jewish ritualists had. You do not express a concern about clean or unclean meats so much as meats from animals raised and slaughtered inhumanely. If this concern has led you never to eat any kind of meat, then it is accurate, of course, to call yourself a vegetarian, but it may give the impression that you fall into one of the above categories, which you do not. This doesn't mean you should not use the term, but, in doing so, I imagine you find yourself continually having to explain what your position is and what it is not, so that no words are spared by assuming the label (the best labels serve to render extensive explanations unnecessary).
You are, it seems, more of a "conscientious objector" with reference to commercially-produced meats. You base your vegetarian choice not on transcendent or pragmatic principles, but upon objection to certain contemporary practices of a modern commercial industry. You didn't say whether you object to eating a cow that was raised grazing in a field and dispatched painlessly with a bullet to the head. If you do object to this, then you are a different kind of vegetarian than I am taking you to be, and probably fall into one of the first two definitions above.
You asked what I think about Acts 15:20, and the Jerusalem council's request that Gentile believers not eat blood, things strangled, or meat offered to idols. I believe that the concern here was that the Gentiles not flaunt their liberty from the law of Moses before their Jewish neighbors, in such a manner as to cause the latter to be repulsed by Christianity, and made the more difficult to evangelize. I think this concern is suggested by the following verse (Acts 15:21).
Paul also expresses a concern about Christians eating meat sacrificed to idols. However, he makes it clear that eating such meat is not intrinsically a moral concern (1 Cor.6:12-13/8:8/10:25). He is concerned about the impact such eating may have on the Christian's public testimony (1 Cor.10:27-33), and upon weaker Christians who may follow this example even to the point of frequenting idolatrous feasts and falling back into paganism (1 Cor.8:10-11).
The following personal thoughts and feelings are "extrabiblical" so they needn't be consulted or heeded. I am very sympathetic toward animals—probably too much so! While I do eat meat, both from the market and from friends who have hunted or raised it, I would have great difficulty (unless I was literally starving) actually killing and butchering an animal. I do not consider this sensitivity a virtue, but a weakness. It would effectively prevent me, if born a Jewish priest, from fulfilling my priestly duties!
But then, had I been born and reared to be a Jewish priest, I would probably not have these sentiments. I would not have been raised on Walt Disney movies and children's books depicting animals as just another kind of human personality living in four-footed bodies. I would not see animals primarily as pets. I would not have been raised in an environment where animal meat is associated with refrigerated, cling-wrapped styrofoam trays rather than dismembered animal carcases.
Had I not been raised in a modern American suburb, I might have viewed hunting as another form of harvesting, and animal husbandry as a variety of gardening. I might have considered that animals legitimately occupy a
lower position than I do in the food chain, and that a deer or a cow has no higher purpose for its existence than to nourish the sons of Adam, made in the image of God. I might have considered that the animal I am hunting or raising for food, if it did not end up nourishing me, would as certainly end up nourishing a predator or a scavenger, which might kill it less humanely than I am prepared to do.
But I was indeed raised with these sentiments and it has been my wish for decades that I could be disabused of them. Therefore, I certainly share your abhorence for cruelty. It is possible that, were I to see the meat that I eat before it became meat and observed that the animal I am eating was abused and tortured at the processing plant, that I would not find it possible to stomach the meal. I am not sure whether chickens crowded shoulder-to-shoulder in pens and fed through tubes are any more or less happy than chickens in a natural environment—only because I do not have knowledge of the complexity or simplicity of the chicken brain and nervous system, nor do I know the degree to which a chick can analyze whether it is in a happy environment or not. But, since I do not know, I tend to think of a chicken experiencing life somewhat as I experience it. I am sure this perception is not accurate, but it is persistent. Therefore, given the conscious choice, I would prefer not to encourage cruel practices in meat production and processing.
I suppose I see myself as being in the position of those in Paul's day, who were instructed to indescriminately buy and eat any meat sold publicly or served privately, unless I was specifically informed that it had an objectionable history. There was a very good chance that any meat sold in Corinth had been the remnants of an idolatrous feast, but it was not so in every case. I cannot trace the origins of every cut of meat offered to me any more than could a Corinthian in the meat market of his day. A given piece of meat may have a checkered past—or it may not. When one does not know for sure, I see Paul as instructing Christians to give the meat the benefit of the doubt (1 Cor.10:25-27).
I agree with John's comments (above) and with much of what you have to say as well. The problem with referring to oneself as "vegetarian" is that it is not really very descriptive of what your convictions are precisely.
To some, it would mean that the person thinks it immoral to kill and eat animals. Many times, this simply stems from world-view confusion, and a failure to see the difference in the nature and status of animals vis-a-vis humans. To these people, killing animals is an offense similar to murder, and eating animals is akin to caniballism. This is a position that, I believe, is in contrast to biblical Christianity, and is condemned as a false doctrine (1 Tim.4:1ff).
Others are vegetarians because they have become convinced that the human organism does not function optimally when fueled by animal products. They are concerned about the impact of meat (and sometimes eggs and dairy products) on cardiovascular health, energy levels, mental alertness, or other physiological concerns. These people are simply making a health choice on the same level as those who abstain from processed sugars, fatty foods, caffeine, etc. There is nothing about this position to be criticized, unless it is the scientific accuracy of the presuppositions about the unhealthiness of eating meat. This is not a matter for Christians to judge one another about.
There are others who avoid eating all meat, simply out of concern for Jewish ritualism. In order to be suited for Jewish consumption, meat had to come from a kosher species, properly butchered so as to drain all the blood, and not something offered to other gods. In Gentile societies, it was often impossible (or at least very difficult) to ascertain whether any given meat sold at the marketplace really was in compliance with these requirements, so some Jews in Gentile lands simply eliminated meat from their diets to make sure they did not inadvertantly become defiled by eating unclean meat. This was probably the vegetarianism practiced by those mentioned in Romans 14:2-4. Since the New Testament does not limit the meats that Christians eat to those that were kosher to the Jews, this concern would be unnecessary for Christians, but Paul is not critical of those who are scrupupous about it.
You seem, really, to be in yet another category. You do not profess to see the consumption of meat as immoral, though your abstinence is not entirely for health reasons either. There is clearly a conscience issue with you, but not the same one Jewish ritualists had. You do not express a concern about clean or unclean meats so much as meats from animals raised and slaughtered inhumanely. If this concern has led you never to eat any kind of meat, then it is accurate, of course, to call yourself a vegetarian, but it may give the impression that you fall into one of the above categories, which you do not. This doesn't mean you should not use the term, but, in doing so, I imagine you find yourself continually having to explain what your position is and what it is not, so that no words are spared by assuming the label (the best labels serve to render extensive explanations unnecessary).
You are, it seems, more of a "conscientious objector" with reference to commercially-produced meats. You base your vegetarian choice not on transcendent or pragmatic principles, but upon objection to certain contemporary practices of a modern commercial industry. You didn't say whether you object to eating a cow that was raised grazing in a field and dispatched painlessly with a bullet to the head. If you do object to this, then you are a different kind of vegetarian than I am taking you to be, and probably fall into one of the first two definitions above.
You asked what I think about Acts 15:20, and the Jerusalem council's request that Gentile believers not eat blood, things strangled, or meat offered to idols. I believe that the concern here was that the Gentiles not flaunt their liberty from the law of Moses before their Jewish neighbors, in such a manner as to cause the latter to be repulsed by Christianity, and made the more difficult to evangelize. I think this concern is suggested by the following verse (Acts 15:21).
Paul also expresses a concern about Christians eating meat sacrificed to idols. However, he makes it clear that eating such meat is not intrinsically a moral concern (1 Cor.6:12-13/8:8/10:25). He is concerned about the impact such eating may have on the Christian's public testimony (1 Cor.10:27-33), and upon weaker Christians who may follow this example even to the point of frequenting idolatrous feasts and falling back into paganism (1 Cor.8:10-11).
The following personal thoughts and feelings are "extrabiblical" so they needn't be consulted or heeded. I am very sympathetic toward animals—probably too much so! While I do eat meat, both from the market and from friends who have hunted or raised it, I would have great difficulty (unless I was literally starving) actually killing and butchering an animal. I do not consider this sensitivity a virtue, but a weakness. It would effectively prevent me, if born a Jewish priest, from fulfilling my priestly duties!
But then, had I been born and reared to be a Jewish priest, I would probably not have these sentiments. I would not have been raised on Walt Disney movies and children's books depicting animals as just another kind of human personality living in four-footed bodies. I would not see animals primarily as pets. I would not have been raised in an environment where animal meat is associated with refrigerated, cling-wrapped styrofoam trays rather than dismembered animal carcases.
Had I not been raised in a modern American suburb, I might have viewed hunting as another form of harvesting, and animal husbandry as a variety of gardening. I might have considered that animals legitimately occupy a
lower position than I do in the food chain, and that a deer or a cow has no higher purpose for its existence than to nourish the sons of Adam, made in the image of God. I might have considered that the animal I am hunting or raising for food, if it did not end up nourishing me, would as certainly end up nourishing a predator or a scavenger, which might kill it less humanely than I am prepared to do.
But I was indeed raised with these sentiments and it has been my wish for decades that I could be disabused of them. Therefore, I certainly share your abhorence for cruelty. It is possible that, were I to see the meat that I eat before it became meat and observed that the animal I am eating was abused and tortured at the processing plant, that I would not find it possible to stomach the meal. I am not sure whether chickens crowded shoulder-to-shoulder in pens and fed through tubes are any more or less happy than chickens in a natural environment—only because I do not have knowledge of the complexity or simplicity of the chicken brain and nervous system, nor do I know the degree to which a chick can analyze whether it is in a happy environment or not. But, since I do not know, I tend to think of a chicken experiencing life somewhat as I experience it. I am sure this perception is not accurate, but it is persistent. Therefore, given the conscious choice, I would prefer not to encourage cruel practices in meat production and processing.
I suppose I see myself as being in the position of those in Paul's day, who were instructed to indescriminately buy and eat any meat sold publicly or served privately, unless I was specifically informed that it had an objectionable history. There was a very good chance that any meat sold in Corinth had been the remnants of an idolatrous feast, but it was not so in every case. I cannot trace the origins of every cut of meat offered to me any more than could a Corinthian in the meat market of his day. A given piece of meat may have a checkered past—or it may not. When one does not know for sure, I see Paul as instructing Christians to give the meat the benefit of the doubt (1 Cor.10:25-27).
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_Anonymous
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Steve,
I appreciate the comments. You are correct in that I do not fall into the category of most vegetarians in that I do not ascribe a sacred status to animals. As I said before, I abhore them because they are simply...gross. I ended up telling people that I am not a vegetarian because I love animals but because I hate plants
(Think about it, its kind of funny). It really is for conscience that I do not eat meat. I think that there are starving people, and I would like to do my best to not be a part in contributing to the starvation. I know that there are distribution issues involved in that, but I feel as though I am not contributing to world hunger, and not supporting companies that only care about money. It is the same reason that I don't shop at Gap, Old Navy, Eddie Bauer, Wal-Mart, Starbucks, and Disney (because of Disney's propensity towards witchcraft). I have friends who eat meat, and we are still friends. It isn't really the meat that is the issue, though if a cow was killed in humane ways, I still wouldn't eat because I think they are disgusting. There is only one circumstance that I could forsee that would preclude my form of vegetarianism and I have done it: I was overseas on a mission trip and we stayed with a family who offered us meat. It amounted to about a months worth of wages and these people offered it to us, (well-cooked), and I had no choice but to eat, otherwise they would be offended. That was seven years ago. But as I live here in the U.S., I don't eat because I don't want to contribute to hunger, oppression, and other problems like that. THanks for the time Steve, we got cut off the other day on the radio.
I appreciate the comments. You are correct in that I do not fall into the category of most vegetarians in that I do not ascribe a sacred status to animals. As I said before, I abhore them because they are simply...gross. I ended up telling people that I am not a vegetarian because I love animals but because I hate plants
(Think about it, its kind of funny). It really is for conscience that I do not eat meat. I think that there are starving people, and I would like to do my best to not be a part in contributing to the starvation. I know that there are distribution issues involved in that, but I feel as though I am not contributing to world hunger, and not supporting companies that only care about money. It is the same reason that I don't shop at Gap, Old Navy, Eddie Bauer, Wal-Mart, Starbucks, and Disney (because of Disney's propensity towards witchcraft). I have friends who eat meat, and we are still friends. It isn't really the meat that is the issue, though if a cow was killed in humane ways, I still wouldn't eat because I think they are disgusting. There is only one circumstance that I could forsee that would preclude my form of vegetarianism and I have done it: I was overseas on a mission trip and we stayed with a family who offered us meat. It amounted to about a months worth of wages and these people offered it to us, (well-cooked), and I had no choice but to eat, otherwise they would be offended. That was seven years ago. But as I live here in the U.S., I don't eat because I don't want to contribute to hunger, oppression, and other problems like that. THanks for the time Steve, we got cut off the other day on the radio.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Anonymous
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I would like to add a minor point of contention. I have done much research into the subject of meat production. In the instance that animals are reared and raised in a feedlot and fed grains suitable for human consumption, I would agree that it is not a reasonable practice environmentally, socially, or from a humane view to eat that animal. Not to mention the adverse health problems for people.
However, not that many animals are kept solely in that environment. Most are range fed and then moved to feedlots for finishing, about 6 months out of a 30 month life span. Still not a good thing, in my opinion.
Cattle, sheep, goats and even pigs and chickens are often fed that which people can't eat; grass, brush and spoiled/waste food products. God, I believe, very reasonably made all them available to people for sustaining our populations. For example, my rocky hill full of poison oak would grow about a loaf worth of wheat but excels at rearing sheep and free-range chickens. I think many things of God have been twisted by evil (greed) and short-sightedness. If you want to get realistic, think how many insects and small rodents are killed in the tilling of a field? Vegetarian sentiment is more what I call "cute-itarian." If it's cute, I don't want to eat it. Plants carry parasites; think e-coli and green onions.
All are God's creatures, and all must be taken into account in our guardianship of Earth. But the way things are going, I hope Jesus gets here soon.
Steve V.
However, not that many animals are kept solely in that environment. Most are range fed and then moved to feedlots for finishing, about 6 months out of a 30 month life span. Still not a good thing, in my opinion.
Cattle, sheep, goats and even pigs and chickens are often fed that which people can't eat; grass, brush and spoiled/waste food products. God, I believe, very reasonably made all them available to people for sustaining our populations. For example, my rocky hill full of poison oak would grow about a loaf worth of wheat but excels at rearing sheep and free-range chickens. I think many things of God have been twisted by evil (greed) and short-sightedness. If you want to get realistic, think how many insects and small rodents are killed in the tilling of a field? Vegetarian sentiment is more what I call "cute-itarian." If it's cute, I don't want to eat it. Plants carry parasites; think e-coli and green onions.
All are God's creatures, and all must be taken into account in our guardianship of Earth. But the way things are going, I hope Jesus gets here soon.
Steve V.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hi
I hunt and fish and eat beef. I have no problem shooting an animal since I beleive the Lord put them here for me to eat. I even pray before I go out that the Lord would bless my endeavors. I find it relaxing and a great way to commune with God. I dont think my brothers who kill vegtables are in any way superior to me,I simply dont distinguish between life that way. Do animals have souls? I dont think so. To differentiate beween a lower life form and a higher life form,like a plant versus a cow,as to those which we should or shouldnt kill is confusing. I say let each person be convinced in his own heart and dont stummble another Christian.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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