Vicarious Forgiveness

[CThomas]

This may be more of a request for pastoral-type guidance than simple theology, and if that strains the purpose of the message board than I apologize in advance.

This perhaps falls under the general category of forgiveness. But it isn't "direct" forgiveness. It has to do with the attitude one should have toward someone who has, in my view, wronged a third party, not me. I'm not one of these guys who by any stretch thinks that my kids can do no wrong and are never at fault in matters of inter-personal disagreement at school and what not. Quite the contrary. But certainly there are some occasions where I happen to have sufficient facts to form a conclusion and sometimes I can be quite convinced that some other kid (ordinarily) has in some sense wronged one of my kids. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the advice I give my kid in such a situation is fairly straightforward -- do your best to genuinely forgive the wrongdoer, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to maintain a close personal friendship with someone who you have reason to believe is likely to continue treating you badly.

The question I have, though, is a little different. It has to do with my own mental attitude toward the perceived wrongdoer in this sort of situation. I often find that I harbor a personal resentment or animosity toward the perceived wrongdoer -- typically a kid, for crying out loud! I'm quite confident that this sort of attitude I see in myself is wrong and sinful. First, because it's often disproportionate to the perceived wrong. But what exactly should my response be? I can't exactly "forgive" someone's wrongdoing toward a person other than me, can I? If person 1 wrongs person 2, then person 3 would seem to have no business forgiving person 1 -- that's what made the Lord Jesus's forgiveness of sins such a unique prerogative -- because as God Himself in human flesh he has the right to pronounce forgiveness of sins against God. Obviously no mere human could do that, but can a mere human any more "forgive" a wrong committed against a third person rather than against God?

What should a Christian strive to do with respect to feelings of hostility against someone who has wronged a family member (or anyone else for that matter)? If not forgiveness, then what is the proper theological framework that is used to address this situation? Also, any practical suggestions for getting rid of sinful negative feelings toward those wrongdoers?

I guess i should add as an important postscript that none of the sorts of wrongs I'm talking about are serious by any stretch. This is all well within the normal run of problems that anyone deals with growing up. We're not talking about some severe harm or crime or anything like that.

Thanks, as always, for whatever suggestions you may have. I looked around but haven't seen any lectures by Steve Gregg addressing the general subject of forgiveness.

CThomas

[Paidion]

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the advice I give my kid in such a situation is fairly straightforward -- do your best to genuinely forgive the wrongdoer, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to maintain a close personal friendship with someone who you have reason to believe is likely to continue treating you badly.

What does it mean in such a case to forgive a person who wrongs you, if he continues to wrong you?
Perhaps you are advising your son simply to let go of his angry feelings toward the one who has wronged him. That's an entirely different matter in my opinion. Doing that should not be called "forgiveness."

In my opinion, genuine forgiveness is a response to repentance (having a change of heart and mind about one's actions). If the person repents and gives evidence of it, you can forgive him, and then relations between you and him are just as if he had never offended.

Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. (Luke 17:3)

[robbyyoung]

Thanks, as always, for whatever suggestions you may have. I looked around but haven't seen any lectures by Steve Gregg addressing the general subject of forgiveness.

CThomas

Luke 6:35 is one of many excellent examples we should follow in order to have the peace that passes all understanding in our daily christian walk. Remember, our decisions to forgive and love others IS NOT conditioned upon the actions of others to reciprocate. This is where our true maturity in righteousness shines like the sun - the strong meat of the word, so to speak. If we find ourselves lacking in this attribute, we should pray for our condition to be strengthened and tested. We must actively mortify the deeds of the flesh, daily, while actively living and practicing the fruits of the Spirit as disciplined children of the kingdom. As we fall in and out of the righteousness which holds us together, in unity and fellowship with the body of Christ and the Father, we stand firm in the faith which saves us that Jesus is all sufficient if we believe by doing what he commands of us. The Lord has laid this concern upon your heart for a reason. Persevere, and when you tire, remain faithful even unto to death and you will be justified as promised.

God Bless!

[CThomas]

Thanks, guys!

Paidion, your point raises another issue I've long noticed. The biblical texts place great emphasis on forgiveness in the context of a wrongdoer coming to the victim and asking for forgiveness, but in my limited experience, this is extremely rare. I find that it is almost never the case that someone who has wronged me comes to me and apologizes and asks me to forgive him. And in that tiny minority of cases, it has been psychologically easy for me to extend forgiveness. By far the more usual case, and the psychologically much harder one, is dealing with an unrepentant wrongdoer.

Robby, thanks very much for the response. Have you ever had a situation where your attention is called back to a familiar passage from the Bible and it somehow resonates more fully with you than before? Well your citation of Luke 6:35 did that for me in this case. Thanks again!

CThomas

[robbyyoung]

Have you ever had a situation where your attention is called back to a familiar passage from the Bible and it somehow resonates more fully with you than before? Well your citation of Luke 6:35 did that for me in this case. Thanks again!

Hey Brother, praise God for His infinite wisdom as we apply His Holy attributes to our lives to the benefit of ourselves and others. What guides me more than anything regarding righteous living is the marriage relationship. My favorite litmus test in this regard is found in "Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" This is penetrating for me and really helps me define my sacrifice to self for the good of another in the hope you will be freely loved in return.

God bless!

[Paidion]

Hi C,

Though I have, a number of times, asked others to forgive me, and also I have been asked for forgiveness several times, that is irrelevant to the matter.

You will notice I said that one could extend true forgiveness if there is evidence of repentance (having a change of heart and mind). That evidence may or may not include asking you for forgiveness. And if you truly forgive the offender, then there is no longer anything between you to prevent you from being friends.

However, if there is no evidence of repentance, and the offender continues down the same path, forgiveness is impossible. All you can do is let go of any ill feelings you might have against him. There is no necessity for you to befriend him. Indeed, if you tried that, you might be sending him the message that what he has been doing is okay.

[Jepne]

From Paidion:

However, if there is no evidence of repentance, and the offender continues down the same path, forgiveness is impossible. All you can do is let go of any ill feelings you might have against him. There is no necessity for you to befriend him. Indeed, if you tried that, you might be sending him the message that what he has been doing is okay.

That same reasoning has come to me but it is not for us to be concerned about, as you have taught me so well from the following words from our Lord:

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Lu 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

Is it not God's loving kindness that leads people to repentance? In praying for people who have wronged us in serious matters, I get the sense of the deep trouble they are in in their own lives, and become an intercessor for them, and, peace and well-being comes to me!

I understand all too well the anger of a parent whose children have been harmed - they have been given into our care. But I have always been warned to not take on another's offense. So, even though the children cannot fend for themselves, as we do for ourselves, often, they hear from God and are able to say things and do things that effect the work of God toward their enemies, and these incidences are good learning opportunities for them.

If we as parents get bent out of shape, we are also harming our children, maybe even worse than the original perpetrator, because our children are looking to us for godly ways to handle life's difficulties. A child who handles life's difficulties in a godly way will not be harmed by them, and teaching them how takes a really quiet spirit.

[CThomas]

Thanks for the wise advice, Jepne.

CThomas

[Jepne]

do your best to genuinely forgive the wrongdoer, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to maintain a close personal friendship with someone who you have reason to believe is likely to continue treating you badly.

Decades ago, I saw my then husband's co-worker's van in a parking lot - he had been infatuated with her for some months. I had some time, and sat and waited for her, approached her and said I'd like to talk with you. We sat in her car and I was able to see her as a person caught in a very serious unfortunate relationship. Within two years from then, she had his first child, then another (he left me for her and they fought for six years and then broke up). I knew that she was not a friend to me, but as a Christian, I needed to be a friend to her.

A friend encourages another in righteousness, in what is best for them (as well as all of society),so that is what I tried to do in that short time. See, I was tempted to wish her dead, and that wasn't working for me. Also, Jesus broke bread with Judas, and more, knowing all the while what he was up to. What our enemies do is their responsibility before God. All we have to do is obey Jesus' commandments.
Bless you.