Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

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Homer
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Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by Homer » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:15 pm

The gays have accomplished "language capture", that is, they have taken words and redefined them to their advantage. Certainly they are in the process of doing so with "marriage" Any opposition to their agenda is "hate". Until recently I would have strongly denied that I hate them. But now I am not so sure. I am opposed to their agenda, so certainly in their eyes I "hate" them. But consider the definition of hate:
verb (used with object), hated, hating.

1. to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest:
to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.

2. to be unwilling; dislike:
I hate to do it.
I confess I dislike (resent?) them a lot for what they are doing to our society. I confess I have feelings of aversion toward them although I do not know any. But on the other hand I would treat them the same as anyone else, at least insofar as it did not contradict or compromise my faith. In other words I would treat them with love as I would any other neighbor.

When my wife and I were young we had a gay neighbor who had young men over for parties. We knew one or two in high school who appeared to be gay. We just ignored their "gayness"; my wife speaks of how she once felt sorry for them but now resents them.

Sadly, I think Christians have lost the battle in our society. Our opinion is now in the minority. Some gay thinkers are now even thinking they should back off and let small Christian businesses discriminate seeing as how the gays have the upper hand. They don't want to stir up any sort of backlash while things are going their way.

There are many old style Mennonites in our area. Many of them have their own small business which in the past has allowed them to avoid any conflict with their faith that might arise if employed by an unbeliever. Unfortunately they may not have the option to maintain their way of making a living if the gays come calling, given the protected status of gays. This makes me very resentful.

So am I sinning? Any thoughts welcome.

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TheEditor
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Re: Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:36 am

Hi Homer,

I have thought about this issue for some time. I'm just going to follow a stream of consciousness because that's how I think best. Don't expect a well organized presentation.

I wonder if we aren't a bit provincial when it comes to how "society" has changed. I wonder if in fact throughout history, certain morays have come and gone and certain ways of viewing things have been at times tolerated, at other times celebrated and still others condemned. And this, in perhaps not so linear a fashion. It may be that this is the way things are right now.

When I was in school during the 1970s and early 1980s, I would have to say blatant drug use was far more common then what my kids have had to witness. I can remember kids smoking pot in the bathrooms and even snorting cocaine--this was in the 7th and 8th grades. Now, schools have "zero tolerance" and you can't even send your kids to school with aspirin. However, a school shooting was relatively unheard of when I attended.

I had a neighbor that was gay--at least I'm pretty sure he was, but he kept it to himself and was not the stereotypical gay man, so you could never be sure. He was one of the more helpful and decent people I have encountered. I was treated better by him then some of my Christian neighbors.

I also fancy myself an egalitarian--to a fault. I cannot stand telling anyone what to do, nor do I want to be told what to do. Therefore, I have a problem with being told I am "hateful" in my thinking because I state a simple fact; Homosexuality is counter-productive to the prime directive of every species--reproduction. There can be no debate on this. Left to it's own nature, gays would never procreate without outside, artificial means.

From a morality standpoint, I believe that a man's natural aversion to homosexuals can be summed up in one sentence; Heterosexual men cannot stand the idea of gay sex. It's unappealing. And, I would say that, in some strange way, perhaps even more unappealing is the idea of gazing into another man's eyes and having the same feelings you would if you were gazing into a woman's eyes. We can't get it, and so it becomes easy to classify homosexuality as a "gross" (quite literally) sin as opposed to our cheery whore-monger friends who merely are slaves to "fun".

I don't like any ideologies that rob others of freedoms. At the same time, I really think that with all of the political hay being made over these issues, we really need to assess what our role is. I heard an interview with a conservative Catholic Priest once and he was asked if he believed the government should make more laws on abortion. His answer was unexpected, but thoughtful, He said, No. His opinion was that politicking prelates were abhorrent to God, because they demonstrated the utter fecklessness of the Church to win over minds and hearts. He believed that the Church (of course he was referring specifically to the RCC, but he included non-Catholics) should win these arguments in the hearts and minds of people, and keep laws away from it. I'll have to say I agree.

Calvin tried a Christian Commonwealth. It was an experiment that failed. We need to demonstrate why Christian ideals are better, not get the Government to use a stick for us to keep society in line.

I too can see how when one controls the language they control the population, and it's sad. Then again, when the Son of Man returns, will he find the faith on earth?

Regards, Brenden.
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robbyyoung
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Re: Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:29 am

Hi Homer,

As a Christian, I have no doubt that you 'hate' sin, either your own or another's. Since sin's medium is 'man', we hold our neighbor accountable, and IN THE FLESH, begin to dislike or become unloving to both the sin and the person. After all, this is exactly what we should expect will happen, absent The Spirit of God in our life. Therefore, to be spiritual minded, we can then release The Kingdom of God which is in us, and righteously hate the sin and love our neighbor at the same time. Look, Yeshua told the Pharisees, "For indeed, The Kingdom of God is within you." Where these Pharisees Believers or Non-Believers? This is a very interesting question regarding reasons to love in either case.

Those who force Churchianity into a complex world promote nothing more than pending disaster and adverse reactions. Gays are "free will" people right? Well how do we deal with any sin in our lives? Is it not by trusting in the work done by Christ? Therefore, turning away from sin, to not practice sin in our lives. However, if we do sin, thank God we have an Advocate.

The Christian message is a GREAT message, but cannot be force upon "free will" creatures. Gay people need to see the following in Christians:

A love that suffers long
A love that is kind
A love without contradiction, seething in hatred and anger
A love that is not self-absorbed
A love that is polite, not easily irritated
A love that is sacrificial
A love free of evil, having no pleasure in unrighteousness
A love that rejoices in truth
A love that bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things

This is the only recipe for success, in order to persuade "free will" sinners to turn from their wicked ways, to trust in God and His Christ. Churchianity is divisive and should be avoided at all cost. The Gospel is here to stay, we can thank God for that, However, as ambassadors to The Kingdom, getting that message out takes patience and a mirror image in lifestyle.

God Bless.

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Paidion
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Re: Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by Paidion » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:09 am

Homer, you wrote:The gays have accomplished "language capture", that is, they have taken words and redefined them to their advantage. Certainly they are in the process of doing so with "marriage" Any opposition to their agenda is "hate".
I fully agree, Homer, that homosexuals have accomplished language capture in the way in which you have stated. And we should not be taken up in using these redefinitions. Unfortunately almost everyone has done so with respect to the beautiful word "gay" itself! From the beginning, I have refused to apply the term as a euphemism for homosexuals. There is no better word to describe them than "homosexuals," because that is what they are.

I am gay. I am happy and gay! I love gay people. I am not a homosexual. I do not have feelings of affection for homosexuals, but I do not hate them (according to the traditional meaning of the word "hate").
Paidion

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steve7150
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Re: Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by steve7150 » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:17 pm

I do not have feelings of affection for homosexuals, but I do not hate them (according to the traditional meaning of the word "hate").








Yes the homosexuals have definetely won the culture war successfully portraying themselves as victims and as a persecuted minority entitled to be protected , quite often from Christians.
Not only have they garnered sympathy but simultaneosly managed to make Christians look hateful and narrow minded. Christians are retreating with their tail between their legs in need of a new leader. Someone like Jesus, or better yet Jesus.
I think the suggestion from the Editor was spot on as we are in no position to judge sinners. We need to get our own stuff together, stay married, be loving, be charitable, be kind and make folks simply admire Christians. If we are asked for an opinion we must be honest but other then that we need to example Jesus principals, not talk the talk but live it.

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Re: Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by Singalphile » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:20 pm

The more or less personal sins (which probably include homosexuality) usually evoke pity and sadness, whereas sin such as child-abuse or the murder of Christians (in Libya, Kenya, etc.) evoke anger and indignation.

Somewhere in between are the feelings towards those who purposefully promote sin and intentionally propagandize our families and our neighbors and seek to ostracize and ruin those who do not celebrate the sin. It is definitely hard not to dislike or even hate people who engage in unfair and dishonest arguments, lies, insults, and bullying. But most of those people probably don't practice homosexuality themselves, so it is not that particular sin or those who practice it that causes any aversion.

So, no, Homer, I don't think you "hate gays". I don't think anyone here does.
TheEditor wrote:... Heterosexual men cannot stand the idea of gay sex. It's unappealing. And, I would say that, in some strange way, perhaps even more unappealing is the idea of gazing into another man's eyes and having the same feelings you would if you were gazing into a woman's eyes. We can't get it, and so it becomes easy to classify homosexuality as a "gross" (quite literally) sin as opposed to our cheery whore-monger friends who merely are slaves to "fun".
I believe that the entertainment industry has worked and is working to change that, with its steady stream of "gay" characters with scant mention of sex, unless perhaps between females, coupled with heterosexual "bro-mance" scenarios and jokes. They have been very successful with that tactic, I think.
steve7150 wrote:I think the suggestion from the Editor was spot on as we are in no position to judge sinners. We need to get our own stuff together, stay married, be loving, be charitable, be kind and make folks simply admire Christians. If we are asked for an opinion we must be honest but other then that we need to example Jesus principals, not talk the talk but live it.
Yes, that's a huge part of it. I would add, though, that we need to collectively take more defensive action. That action, imo, is that we should stop financially supporting their primary tool that is used to promote sin and attack us and our views. If we were fighting a war, would we finance the enemy's weapons for them?
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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morbo3000
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Re: Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by morbo3000 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:11 pm

As the self-proclaimed apologist for marriage equality, and LGBT people on theos, here are my thoughts.

First, I don't hear hate speech on theos. At least not in the comments so far.

My gay friends are not offended, nor feel hated by people who, on religious principles, believe that same gender sex is a sin. And they are able to distinguish between people who, while proclaiming Christian faith, genuinely are hateful, and people who proclaim christian faith but disagree. In other words, they don't lump together "Christians" as hateful.

Hate speech is what I read in a Facebook comment thread following Rachel Held Evans' acknowledgement of her support for marriage equality, and her decision to join the Episcopal church. In the past, we could attribute such trolling actions as the consequence of anonymity online. But on Facebook, "everybody knows your name," to quote Cheers. Some people were genuinely evil, while claiming Christianity, and willing to put their name behind it. I was horrified. Seriously. Horrified.

I also think it is hate speech to perpetuate stereotypes. Here is a tale of two pastors

I have one pastor friend who made random comments online about how christians shouldn't have to make cakes for LGBT weddings because in a lot of cases, they want penis' on their cakes. A quick google search for the most popular gay cakes, showed that that isn't the case at all. I called him on it, and he sorta mumbled his way out of it. He does the same thing about Muslims.

By contrast, I have another pastor friend.. I believe he holds to a traditional view of marriage and gender sex. He was different because he was among many Christians who said "If someone asks you to bake a cake, bake him two."

Both of these men (I think) disagree with same gender sex. One is hateful. The other is not. I can tell the difference. My gay friends can tell the difference. And I believe our laws can tell the difference.

The gay wedding cake fiasco demonstrated one thing. The "radical homosexual" movement was not responsible for the outrage against Indiana and Arkansas. It was the friends, family, employers, and Christians who stood up and said we aren't going to stand for this discrimination. People who perpetuate stereotypes or are hateful are now marginalized and will be called out. But not people who disagree.
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Singalphile
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Re: Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by Singalphile » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:38 pm

Morbo3000,

This issue can lead me to frustration because a lot of the language that is used seems dishonest and/or very loaded and emotive. Whether intentional or not, it does not help bring about any compromise or understanding or good will. Of course, it does just the opposite. This is related to the "language capture" that Homer mentioned in his first post, I think.

Some questions:

I know that internet comments are horrifying. But what comments do you think you might read here (if not "so far") that you would call "hate speech"?

It what kind of case, if any, should it be illegal for a business-owner to decline to service a particular event or region for reasons of conscience (whether religious or not)?

In what kind of case, if any, would it be the right-thing-to-do for a business-owner to decline to provide his or her services?

What does "marriage equality" mean to you?
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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morbo3000
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Re: Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by morbo3000 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:59 am

Singalphile wrote:Morbo3000,

This issue can lead me to frustration because a lot of the language that is used seems dishonest and/or very loaded and emotive. Whether intentional or not, it does not help bring about any compromise or understanding or good will. Of course, it does just the opposite. This is related to the "language capture" that Homer mentioned in his first post, I think.
I was not being dishonest. And I wasn't feeling emotive. Just sittin' at my computer answering a question. My whole point was to casually let people here know that I don't, nor do my friends, believe that your convictions about same gender sex are hate speech. And knowing the regulars here, I can't imagine any of you saying troll-ish things. I was also trying to say that the LGBT community knows that "trolls in christian clothing," don't speak for Christianity.

I can answer the other questions later. Time for bed.
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TheEditor
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Re: Do I Hate Gays; Do You?

Post by TheEditor » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:31 am

Just an observation, I don't think Singalphile was saying that you were being dishonest or emotive, but that some supporters of the pro-gay marriage camp engage in dishonest and emotive speech. I won't speak for Singalphile, but that's how I took it, and frankly, that has been my experience in many cases. Too often when people are trying to win a debate, they couch things a certain way so as to make any answer but the one they want to hear, sound grievous, similar to the old saying "Answer council's question Yes, or No; Have you stopped beating your wife?" By capturing terms and language one can make a case for just about anything, and make those that are opposed, or even remotely reluctant, appear to be small-minded and on "the wrong side of history."

Regards, Brenden.
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