KY Court Clerk

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robbyyoung
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Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:57 pm

Singalphile wrote:I only just heard about it and I don't know any details.

It seems to me like the answer to all of this (including her situation) is for governors and/or mayors to require the word "marriage" to be replaced by "civil union" (or some equivalent) in all legal documents and to call for "marriage" to be likewise replaced in all laws and statutes, which might require legislation. I would think that this could be done rather easily in many states.
Hi Singalphile,

I could be wrong but, marriage should have nothing to do with "The State", it's a religious/God ordained institution that's been hi-jacked by the government. Christians shouldn't be threatened by "The State" adopting biblical terms to engage in a perversion of what we hold as sacred. We simply need to make sure our example is above reproach to what is righteous and proper as a witness to our faith. I say we peacefully beat back "The State" influence on religous practices by keeping separate their laws and our christian beliefs.
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jaydam
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Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by jaydam » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:43 am

What does it matter who the government wishes to permit on paper to be called a legal "couple" or however numerous the participants in the relationship (Throuple... etc.)?

This woman is not joining homosexual couples spiritually before God. She is giving them a civil instrument (piece of paper) showing that the government has chosen to recognize some legality of cohabitation. The government is a secular (nonspiritual) entity, which means its instruments are only civil and legal, not spiritual.

Certainly, if the act violates her conscience, she should not do it.

However, on the topic as a whole, why should a Christian have a problem issuing a secular certificate, from a secular institution, to a person?

Having the word marriage on the certificate certainly causes consternation for Christians, but when one considers the English word is defined as "the legally or formally recognized union of... partners in a relationship." Then it seems fine for the government to use such a word for what they want to do - recognize the partnership legally.

Christians simply use the same word to speak of recognizing a partnership spiritually.

It seems Christians are so married (pun intended) to their government, that they believe the government acts spiritually.

Singalphile
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Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by Singalphile » Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:11 am

robbyoung wrote:Hi Singalphile,

I could be wrong but, marriage should have nothing to do with "The State", it's a religious/God ordained institution that's been hi-jacked by the government. Christians shouldn't be threatened by "The State" adopting biblical terms to engage in a perversion of what we hold as sacred. We simply need to make sure our example is above reproach to what is righteous and proper as a witness to our faith. I say we peacefully beat back "The State" influence on religous practices by keeping separate their laws and our christian beliefs.
I agree, robbyoung, which is why I think my suggestion* makes sense. Imo, it would better reflect the reality of the situation, and would prevent situations like the KY court clerk is facing. And it's also actually feasible and would be simple to implement.

jaydam, I would say the same in response to you. You're correct; the state merely provides these licenses for tax/administrative reasons. The licenses may once have corresponded to with what marriage is (in its primary definition), but not anymore. I don't know what objection there could be to updating the language accordingly. It would resolve the conscientious objector's problem, I think. Issuing a "civil union" license would then be no different than issuing a business license, driver's license, etc.

*I'm sure I'm not the only one with this idea, but I've not heard it suggested elsewhere that I recall. (Though I pay scant attention to politics.)
TheEditor wrote: Just my 2 cents. Being raised a JW I knew many men that spent time on McNeil Island for being COs due to the draft. However, if one joins the military voluntarily, they cannot pick and choose which orders to follow. Same with being a police officer. You cannot say "I am a pacifist" when required to brandish your firearm. In this case, quitting the job seems to be the wisest course of action. It shows that she is willing to relinquish something for her conscience, rather than making a "statement".
That makes sense. Though to be fair to this KY woman, she may have been elected (or appointed or hired) before the five judges changed the rules.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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morbo3000
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Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by morbo3000 » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:39 pm

I agree with the suggestion by others on this board that legally renaming marriage as civil union for anyone, and then letting religious institutions, or what/whomever define what they believe is a marriage.

If I remember correctly, the original main issues that marriage equality was meant to address were things like acceptance by hospitals of the same visitation rights as married couples, and benefits from employers. There might have been tax issues as well... and more recently, the validation of your commitment with the same term used by heterosexual couples. I could be wrong about that.. not interested in that debate.

That situation has changed, at least in Washington.

I just performed a wedding for a couple (heterosexual.) I have been a "registered" minister by a denomination (whatever that means) in the past, which granted me "by the authority vested in me by the state of Washington." I am no longer "registered" with a denomination, but continue to be a "pastor" (whatever that means.) In some states you can now perform weddings by getting a mail order "license." When I was asked to do this wedding, I asked a "registered" pastor friend about that. He said you don't need to in Washington state. (?!) Anyone can perform a wedding ceremony. The only real thing is the signatures of officiant, couple, and witnesses.

So I don't really know what the legal concept of marriage means anymore, at least in "liberal" states like Washington.

So the idea of a legal registration makes more sense. I think in states like ours, that's what it is anyway.
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Paidion
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Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by Paidion » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:41 pm

Well, I admire the lady for the stand she took—to act according to her Christian conscience rather than in accordance with laws of man. I think the stance of Peter and John before the Jewish leaders was rather similar:
But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name.” So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.” (Acts 4:17-20)
I think it's a low blow to bring up the woman's past as if she is now being hypocritical to take the stance she took. If God forgives the past when a person becomes a disciple of Christ, are we incapable of doing the same? Would you who criticize her Christian position because of her past, be content to have someone do the same to you? Do you have enough backbone to take a firm stand for righteousness as this lady has done? Or would you cave in on the first indication of the enforcement of the secular law, even when that law comes against the law of Christ?
Paidion

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TheEditor
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Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by TheEditor » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:18 pm

Hi Paidion,

I say it's a pointless position for her to take, not that it is wrong. If you were hired by a township to walk a patrol in your neighborhood and alert the police if you noticed strange things afoot, that is one thing. However, if later the township changed the law and said that you were required to brandish a firearm in that position, then you need to quit. You cannot say "I am a pacifist" and expect to retain this position. Therefore, she should quit her position, or assign that duty to others. There's a difference between refusing to do what the State is compelling you to do (as in the draft) and taking 80,000 per year and saying you eschew your obligations based on religious convictions, but still want to keep the job. If she quits, she gave something up for her faith.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Paidion
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Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by Paidion » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:25 pm

If she had simply quit, few would know why. Maybe she just got tired of the job, or found a better paying one.

But by taking a stand, and being willing to be imprisoned for standing up for a principle of her faith, she bore witness to her faith and to her Redeemer.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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TheEditor
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Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by TheEditor » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:40 pm

I suppose you could look at it that way. But one can do wonders with Press Releases these days. Announcing she could not conscientiously issue these licenses would have done the same. By the way, if I'm not mistaken, didn't she also just go ahead and say "I'm not issuing any licenses, period." Or something like that? I thought I had heard that. If so, that doesn't seem like a principled stand, but a petulant one, or at least an adroit one.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by dizerner » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:55 pm

More importantly apparently she's not a Trinitarian—the Editor, you must side with your own! (ok bad joke :oops:)

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TheEditor
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Re: KY Court Clerk

Post by TheEditor » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:29 am

Hmmm, that is unusual. Where did you come about that tidbit?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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