Eagerness to take out some Muslims

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morbo3000
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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by morbo3000 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:51 pm

I said: Speech and behavior so abhorrent, I can no longer consider themselves Christians...
Jaydam said: I think we are separated in our topics a bit. You do not like the attitude with which people discuss, but I believe I am more referring to the willingness to do physical violence.
Hate is not removed from violence, according to the sermon on the mount. It's impossible to overstate what people said. And just to reiterate. I'm not talking about disagreeing on the topic. I can tell the difference. "Christians" threaten gays or their supporters people with violence. They kill people working in abortion clinics. They picket funerals. This is not Christ.
You negatively view those who would question Rachel Evans biblical authenticity due to her actions,
Not at all. I admitted that some/many/most on the board would question her faith. Maybe mine.
I said: Rachel Held Evans, a progressive Christian (or "christian" some of you may say)
That wasn't sarcasm. Or ridicule. Simply a plain fact, without judgment on y'all or others who disagree on the issue.

There is a big difference between y'all and some of what I've read and heard from others. The ladies in the cake baking fiasco received death threats and threats on their children. That's the same behavior you describe about people's the reaction to muslims.
I would agree with you, not just in regards to the conservatives who speak hate, but to the progressives as well, that it is difficult to understand how they believe the way they do if they claim the Bible to be their guide.
I have no problem with that. I'm one of those people. But I'm not making death threats. That's a huge difference.

I appreciate your tone in discussing this. Hopefully you can hear the same from me.

Jeff
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jaydam
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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by jaydam » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:29 pm

morbo3000 wrote:Hate is not removed from violence, according to the sermon on the mount.
I do not believe that an exact parallel is actually being drawn in the sermon between hate and violence in Christ's sermon.

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jaydam
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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by jaydam » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:02 pm

Robby, as I was thinking about what I wrote earlier about the infamous "if" in Romans 12:18 which all my friends use as the exemption for Christian violence, I believe I perhaps boiled it down better. Here is my concise thought on it, although the previous post still holds more aspects:
To use the "if" of Romans 12:18 as an excuse for reciprocatory violence is no different than the original eye for an eye idea which I believe is spoken against in the New Testament. Harm would be met with harm in the name of justice and/or dissuasion on behalf of the victim of the initial violence in both understandings of the Old Testament allowance, and the interpretation for such allowance in Romans 12:18. Therefore, the "if" exemption interpretation really brings nothing new to the table, when we understand from the gist of the New Testament that there should be. I believe this would mean that the "if" exemption understanding is therefore necessarily wrong since it states: I don't pick a fight, but I get to respond to violence with violence when the other party starts it. This is no different that the eye for an eye understanding: I don't go around gouging out eyes, but I get to gouge one out if the other party gouges mine out first.

Thus, to make a split from the old idea, "if" must mean something else other than an exemption because it ultimately is no different than the way it used to be.

I believe "if" is simply a recognition that despite ones best effort, the other party might still get violent. If this happens, it is no fault of yours. The "if" merely acknowledges that you will not be able to prevent all violence from breaking out from the other side.

So, what happens if this violence breaks out? The next verses tell us and directly refute the right to respond violently: Do not seek vengeance, but feed and water your enemies and let God deal with the response.
Maybe this is clearer than what I wrote last time.

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jaydam
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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by jaydam » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:23 pm

One more thing:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1002 ... Persecutor

This is one of the most life changing books I have ever read on the issue. I don't know how you can read this book and remain unquestioning in the belief that it is intended for Christians to violently defend themselves even under attack.

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Homer
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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by Homer » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:15 am

Morbo wrote:
Speech and behavior so abhorrent, I can no longer consider themselves Christians.

So what are they? In my opinion, a breed of radical Christian fundamentalism has been on the rise, not dissimilar to religious white supremacy, or religious islamic fundamentalism. It is so hard for us to comprehend how people who say the bible is their guide, and Christ their God, that they could say or believe the things they do.
I can not judge these people who say things such as Jerry Falwell jr. is reported to have said. But I can see how they might think they are Christians because they set aside teachings of Christ as an "impossible ideal". I have actually heard Billy Graham state that the purpose of the Sermon on the Mount was to drive us to Christ. If you believe Jesus' teachings are impossible to keep and that you need to simply trust Jesus and what He did for you, then all sorts of things can be rationalized.

Let me present another question. Some years ago less than 1/2 mile from our home I heard gun shots ring out. A man at a convenience store had taken hostage a woman, holding a gun to her head. Those shots came from a deputy sheriff who had the man in his gun sight and when the man momentarily lowered his gun a bit he was immediately shot dead. Now someone called the police and must have known of the likelihood (and probably hoped) that the man would be shot. I would say the deputy was God's agent and did not sin. And neither was the one who called the deputy guilty of sin. But what if the caller was informed it would be 30 minutes before a deputy could get there (we are in a relatively rural area); would a civilian bystander sin if he shot the man to death? And would the woman hostage have sinned if she had a gun and was able to shoot the man?

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jaydam
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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by jaydam » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:36 am

Homer wrote:I would say the deputy was God's agent and did not sin.
Does being utilized as God's agent equate to not sinning? It seems to me that God can use sinning people as his agent, but that does not make their actions righteous.

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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by backwoodsman » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:43 am

jaydam wrote:Yet my Christian friends express a "bring it on" joy at the chance to take out a bad guy one day if the opportunity presents itself.
It was much worse for a couple years after 9/11/2001. Now, at least there's a public discussion with both sides represented, both inside and outside the church. Then, it was often hard to find a Christian who wasn't bloodthirsty, and disagreeing with or even simply questioning the official line could get you ostracized from many Christian circles in a heartbeat.

It's shocking to see people you know fairly well, who as far as can be seen from the outside are otherwise good, sincere followers of Jesus, turn bloodthirsty and militant at the drop of a hat, without even realizing it. I still haven't found a way to deal with it, except to follow my conscience and leave them to God.

Steve has an article that addresses this subject:
http://thenarrowpath.com/ta_resistance.php

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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by steve7150 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:15 pm

So what are they? In my opinion, a breed of radical Christian fundamentalism has been on the rise, not dissimilar to religious white supremacy, or religious islamic fundamentalism. It is so hard for us to comprehend how people who say the bible is their guide, and Christ their God, that they could say or believe the things they do.








Radical Christian fundamentalism is akin to white supremacists or Islamic fundamentalists? I think you are making a comparison that is blatantly unfair and doing it in a venue where you know no one will object. Any Christians who stray from biblical guidelines whether to the right or to the left are probably operating in the flesh and need to examine themselves. You and the author of the article are offended (IMO) by the perceived intolerance of the Christian radical right but the tone and specifics of this article sounds just as intolerant toward your intended target. I'm not supporting the radical Christian right but to equate them with people who want to kill folks who are simply different is way crossing the line and in itself intolerant.

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mattrose
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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by mattrose » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:23 pm

I think it's important to use words correctly

Since the term 'radical' (speaking in terms of etymology) has to do with roots... "Radical Islam" has to do with Islamic people returning to Muhammad's life and teachings. Seemingly, this does involve a mix of strong-monotheism, devout-living, and occasionally necessary violence.

"Radical Christianity" would have to do with returning to Christ's life and teachings. This would involve righteous living and peacemaking.

A "Radical Christian" (by definition) would never "TAKE OUT SOME MUSLIMS"... whether they were radical muslims or not.

A "Radical Muslim" might very well take out some Christians

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Homer
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Re: Eagerness to take out some Muslims

Post by Homer » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:22 pm

Hi Jaydam,

You wrote:
Homer wrote:
I would say the deputy was God's agent and did not sin.

Does being utilized as God's agent equate to not sinning? It seems to me that God can use sinning people as his agent, but that does not make their actions righteous.
So let us examine the scenario as though the deputy, even though he was God's agent (Roman's 13:3-4) said to himself "If I shoot the man holding the hostage, even though I will save her life, it will be a sin so I will just hope for the best" and as a result the man shoots his innocent victim to death, would the deputy have sinned by failing to act?

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