My husband never discussed this matter with our son although we
are not ignorant of this subject, it just never came up or thought of years ago. People are much to open these days!
masturbation
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masturbation
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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Such long answers for such a simple subject.
To those of you who never "made the connection" before you were married, I cannot help wondering if you don't have other repressed memories or if, perhaps, you might have been deficient in testosterone. Truly, even the venerable James Dobson fully anticipates that boys will discover themselves. Perhaps you are too old to remember what it was like to be twelve or thirteen, when things happen down there without any stimulation.
To those of you who never discussed the topic with your sons, I would ask how is it that you can "scripturally" expound upon the topic on the internet , but you couldn't take 5 minutes with your son to let him know your deeply held views. Handing him a book on his way out the door into the wide world is too little, too late. Advice to parents of teenage males: don't talk about it.
Unfortunately, you have neglected the only verse in the Bible that does address the "M" word:
Verse 18 clearly refers to sexual intercourse, but verse 16 refers to a seminal emission sans woman. Since there is no mention of this emission occurring during sleep, as in Deuteronomy 23:10, it is reasonable to assume that verse 16 is referring to masturbation. As in other places in the Law, God deals with this emission in a very "matter-of-fact" way and certainly does not indicate that any shame should be associated with it. Whether with your wife or not, after a seminal emission you should go take a bath!
If God was really bothered by such a practice, here was his opportunity to address it. He clearly condemns sexual intercourse between men in Leviticus 18:22 as "detestable". Had he wanted us to avoid masturbation, he would have said, "Disgusting", and not "Go take a bath".
Most male mammals masturbate. (Say that ten times fast). Even when they are married and have a satisfying sexual relationship. Why? Because it increases fertility by flushing out aging sperm. God designed this system, not me. A study released last year linked "inadequate emptying of the prostate gland" to significantly increased prostate cancer. In other words, masturbation has proven medical benefits.
Now, I'm not preaching masturbation, just popping a gaping hole in your bubbles.
Of course, every male should be made aware of the addictive dangers of experiencing sexual release in the presence of pornography (giving him a book 5 years post-puberty won't tell him that). Of course, any behavior that becomes compulsive and causes you to reorder your day, everyday, should be counseled. And, of course, if God is working you over and this area has become a distraction, you should incline your ear and submit.
But, you shouldn't just take the words of Steve or James Dobson or anyone else as the final say. Guilt is not from God, conviction is. Don't allow the (well-meaning) opinions of others to ensnare you in the Devil's cycle of guilt and shame. God created your body and the amazing systems therein. Just remember, take a bath when you need one.
To those of you who never "made the connection" before you were married, I cannot help wondering if you don't have other repressed memories or if, perhaps, you might have been deficient in testosterone. Truly, even the venerable James Dobson fully anticipates that boys will discover themselves. Perhaps you are too old to remember what it was like to be twelve or thirteen, when things happen down there without any stimulation.
To those of you who never discussed the topic with your sons, I would ask how is it that you can "scripturally" expound upon the topic on the internet , but you couldn't take 5 minutes with your son to let him know your deeply held views. Handing him a book on his way out the door into the wide world is too little, too late. Advice to parents of teenage males: don't talk about it.
Unfortunately, you have neglected the only verse in the Bible that does address the "M" word:
Leviticus 15:16-18 NIV16 When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man lies with a women and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.
Verse 18 clearly refers to sexual intercourse, but verse 16 refers to a seminal emission sans woman. Since there is no mention of this emission occurring during sleep, as in Deuteronomy 23:10, it is reasonable to assume that verse 16 is referring to masturbation. As in other places in the Law, God deals with this emission in a very "matter-of-fact" way and certainly does not indicate that any shame should be associated with it. Whether with your wife or not, after a seminal emission you should go take a bath!
If God was really bothered by such a practice, here was his opportunity to address it. He clearly condemns sexual intercourse between men in Leviticus 18:22 as "detestable". Had he wanted us to avoid masturbation, he would have said, "Disgusting", and not "Go take a bath".
Most male mammals masturbate. (Say that ten times fast). Even when they are married and have a satisfying sexual relationship. Why? Because it increases fertility by flushing out aging sperm. God designed this system, not me. A study released last year linked "inadequate emptying of the prostate gland" to significantly increased prostate cancer. In other words, masturbation has proven medical benefits.
Now, I'm not preaching masturbation, just popping a gaping hole in your bubbles.
Of course, every male should be made aware of the addictive dangers of experiencing sexual release in the presence of pornography (giving him a book 5 years post-puberty won't tell him that). Of course, any behavior that becomes compulsive and causes you to reorder your day, everyday, should be counseled. And, of course, if God is working you over and this area has become a distraction, you should incline your ear and submit.
But, you shouldn't just take the words of Steve or James Dobson or anyone else as the final say. Guilt is not from God, conviction is. Don't allow the (well-meaning) opinions of others to ensnare you in the Devil's cycle of guilt and shame. God created your body and the amazing systems therein. Just remember, take a bath when you need one.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Thanks for your perspective. My answer is long because the topic is not anywhere near as simple as you perceive it to be. Thinking Christians realize how nuanced this topic is. It can't be dispensed with by appeal to a single verse in Leviticus, which itself conveys a different idea to you from what it conveys to me and others.
I stand by my previous statements.
As you suggest, I may have been blessed with less testosterone than some others (don't know—never had it checked). However, I have always had enough to be bothered by it. It is possible that most boys were sheltered by their parents less than I and my boys were. I remember, well enough, being attracted to girls when I was 12 or 13. But it never crossed my mind to be attracted to myself. In any case, I have nothing I am trying to prove here.
I have no repressed memories of this practice (if repression exists, which is debatable, it normally is thought to have to do with memories too painful to consciously retain. I don't think masturbation is the kind of thing that boys would repress).
I know that Dobson says all teenagers masturbate. I also read that in a book when I was nineteen. I know from my own experience that that is not correct, though all boys might have seminal emissions in their sleep.
Psychologists often make sweeping statements about "all people" when, in fact, they don't actually know all people—they only know the kind of people who have the kind of problems that send them to therapists.
Believe it or not, many people don't have those kinds of problems, and have no occasion to see a shrink—but the psychologist would have no way of knowing this, given the narrowness of his experience. He extrapolates from what he observes in his "patients" to what it must be like for normal people. This is a mistake.
A great many "mental health professionals" do not themselves belong to the "normal" category (judging by the fact that most of them were in therapy before becoming professionals, and that many of them stay in therapy after they enter the practice). Dobson is a great guy, but he is unashamedly influenced by secular psychology.
I mentioned in my original answer that some people might include masturbation under the heading of "uncleanness." This is what you do by your appeal to the verse in Leviticus. It was Leviticus 15:16 that I had in mind when I mentioned this.
If it is indeed so to be regarded, it should be remembered that uncleanness is one of the "works of the flesh" which is forbidden numerous places in the New Testament (e.g.. Galatians 5:19; 1 Thess.4:7).
Like you, I am concerned that Christian men not be subjected to condemnation because of personal weakness. However, that concern did not prevent the biblical writers from presenting a standard of holiness for the believers to aim at. Lowering the bar is the easiest thing to do, but it is not what God has chosen to do. He keeps the bar where it belongs, and then graciously forgives those who fail to top it and who repent.
My answer to the initial question was based upon my own human experience, my experience with counseling many men and my consideration of the relevant Scripture. I do not claim infallibility.
I stand by my previous statements.
As you suggest, I may have been blessed with less testosterone than some others (don't know—never had it checked). However, I have always had enough to be bothered by it. It is possible that most boys were sheltered by their parents less than I and my boys were. I remember, well enough, being attracted to girls when I was 12 or 13. But it never crossed my mind to be attracted to myself. In any case, I have nothing I am trying to prove here.
I have no repressed memories of this practice (if repression exists, which is debatable, it normally is thought to have to do with memories too painful to consciously retain. I don't think masturbation is the kind of thing that boys would repress).
I know that Dobson says all teenagers masturbate. I also read that in a book when I was nineteen. I know from my own experience that that is not correct, though all boys might have seminal emissions in their sleep.
Psychologists often make sweeping statements about "all people" when, in fact, they don't actually know all people—they only know the kind of people who have the kind of problems that send them to therapists.
Believe it or not, many people don't have those kinds of problems, and have no occasion to see a shrink—but the psychologist would have no way of knowing this, given the narrowness of his experience. He extrapolates from what he observes in his "patients" to what it must be like for normal people. This is a mistake.
A great many "mental health professionals" do not themselves belong to the "normal" category (judging by the fact that most of them were in therapy before becoming professionals, and that many of them stay in therapy after they enter the practice). Dobson is a great guy, but he is unashamedly influenced by secular psychology.
I mentioned in my original answer that some people might include masturbation under the heading of "uncleanness." This is what you do by your appeal to the verse in Leviticus. It was Leviticus 15:16 that I had in mind when I mentioned this.
If it is indeed so to be regarded, it should be remembered that uncleanness is one of the "works of the flesh" which is forbidden numerous places in the New Testament (e.g.. Galatians 5:19; 1 Thess.4:7).
Like you, I am concerned that Christian men not be subjected to condemnation because of personal weakness. However, that concern did not prevent the biblical writers from presenting a standard of holiness for the believers to aim at. Lowering the bar is the easiest thing to do, but it is not what God has chosen to do. He keeps the bar where it belongs, and then graciously forgives those who fail to top it and who repent.
My answer to the initial question was based upon my own human experience, my experience with counseling many men and my consideration of the relevant Scripture. I do not claim infallibility.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_Christopher
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Pardon me for saying so Guest, but that sounds to me like a wordly response to a spiritual problem.
I don't know about you, but when Paul says to "Flee sexual immorality" (1 Cor 6:18 ), it doesn't sound like he is saying it's ok to "dabble" in it. Masturbation usually (if not always) includes some sort of mental visualization of someone else (typically a real living person), which Jesus said was on par with adultery (Matt 5:28 ).
I fully understand that the passage in 1 Corinithians I just used was not talking about masturbation per se, Paul used fornication with a prostitute as his example. However, earlier in the same passage he said:
1 Cor 6:13
Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
NKJV
As the temple of the Holy Spirit, we are called to "discipline the body and bring it into subjection (1 Cor 9:27)". How can we say that masturbation with fanticization is any better than sleeping with a prostitute? They serve the same purpose and at the very minimum, the visualization part is sin.
you wrote:
Many people that succomb to this temptation find that they need to pervert their visualizations further and further in order for it to remain stimulating.
It is clearly not God's design for sexual release or Paul could have just as easily included it as an option along side marriage in 1 Corinthians 7:2.
I don't believe that giving young men (or women) a license to indulge their lusts and then "take a bath" is very loving nor very helpful to their spiritual well-being. Rather, I think we should believe and heed the words of the apostle Paul:
1 Cor 10:13
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
NKJV
You also wrote:
The issue for the Christian is not keeping the physical body alive, but to "deny himself, and take up his cross," Jesus said (Mark 8:34). He also said, "whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it (Mark 8:35-36). "
I think the very fact that this subject is very ambiguous in scripture leads many to yield to temptation where they otherwise would not. This is another one of the Devil's ensnarements, "Has God indeed said...?"
I don't know about you, but when Paul says to "Flee sexual immorality" (1 Cor 6:18 ), it doesn't sound like he is saying it's ok to "dabble" in it. Masturbation usually (if not always) includes some sort of mental visualization of someone else (typically a real living person), which Jesus said was on par with adultery (Matt 5:28 ).
I fully understand that the passage in 1 Corinithians I just used was not talking about masturbation per se, Paul used fornication with a prostitute as his example. However, earlier in the same passage he said:
1 Cor 6:13
Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
NKJV
As the temple of the Holy Spirit, we are called to "discipline the body and bring it into subjection (1 Cor 9:27)". How can we say that masturbation with fanticization is any better than sleeping with a prostitute? They serve the same purpose and at the very minimum, the visualization part is sin.
you wrote:
I think you may underestimate the power of our media driven culture to overstimulate young boys with a full library of sexual images engrained in their minds (who needs porno mags?).Perhaps you are too old to remember what it was like to be twelve or thirteen, when things happen down there without any stimulation.
Many people that succomb to this temptation find that they need to pervert their visualizations further and further in order for it to remain stimulating.
It is clearly not God's design for sexual release or Paul could have just as easily included it as an option along side marriage in 1 Corinthians 7:2.
I don't believe that giving young men (or women) a license to indulge their lusts and then "take a bath" is very loving nor very helpful to their spiritual well-being. Rather, I think we should believe and heed the words of the apostle Paul:
1 Cor 10:13
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
NKJV
You also wrote:
I'm amazed how often Christians turn to medical and psychological science for guidance rather than the whole counsel of God. God already has a design for accomplishing this purpose, it's called nocturnal emmission (aka "Wet dream"). Besides, If I get cancer, what's that to me anyways? For one, I'm not my own and God determines the number of my days, not me. Secondly, "to die is gain" (Phil 1:21).A study released last year linked "inadequate emptying of the prostate gland" to significantly increased prostate cancer. In other words, masturbation has proven medical benefits.
The issue for the Christian is not keeping the physical body alive, but to "deny himself, and take up his cross," Jesus said (Mark 8:34). He also said, "whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it (Mark 8:35-36). "
I think the very fact that this subject is very ambiguous in scripture leads many to yield to temptation where they otherwise would not. This is another one of the Devil's ensnarements, "Has God indeed said...?"
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
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Hello,
Just though I would weigh in on a couple of things here...
I don't mean to proselytize either way or try and twist the laws of God to conform to my own desires. With that said;
First off, Steve's suggestion of never being "attracted to myself" seems a tad ridiculous. I don't think anyone would claim attraction to oneself as reason for masturbating. I realize this was likely tongue-in-cheek, however, personal experience as well as the experience of many others indicates to me that the act of masturbation is certainly not one of self-desire.
Secondly, masturbation is often engaged in before individuals are fully aware of what it even is. Babies have been observed doing it. This obviously does not necessitate the act being "good" or "right." Even for myself, I began masturbating well before I had any idea of what it was. For a long time I thought I was some sort of freak, until I finally heard about masturbation and realized I wasn't unique. I have several friends who had similar experiences as well. Regardless of how one feels about the issue, I know that when I have sons, if that day ever comes, I will talk to them about masturbation. There is a tremendous amount of guilt and shame that is often associated with masturbation, which I think is harmful to the individual. I am convinced that this guilt stems from general religious attitudes about sex as bad and wrong, and the isolation one feels because of this. Again, I am merely saying that a discussion of the issues should exist, and masturbation, as well as sex in general, should not be so hush-hush among Christians. God gave us sex and sexual desires, they should not immediately be associated with shame.
As far as Steve's issues with psychology, I do not wish to confront them all here. However, most statistics in the field tend to be based not on individual psychologists personal experience with patients, but rather on studies and experiments. In the case of masturbation, I am sure this involves survey data. The reliability of surveys is a debate for another day, but suffice it to say they do not merely represent those people with "the kind of problems that send them to therapists."
On the issue of uncleanness, if masturbation is to be avoided as works of the flesh as Steve indicates, then so is sex in general according to the following verse. Furthermore, how does a woman avoid her period, which if I recall correctly brings about uncleanness as well?
Chris asserts that wet dreams fulfill the health benefits of masturbation. While wet dreams are an issue of fantasy in themselves, and one that I personally have felt more guilty about then masturbating, I will not go into it here other then to point out that wet dreams usually end after adolescence. What I believe to be more pertinent and possibly tangential issue is the assumption that personal health is a non-issue for "to die is gain." I myself have wondered about this issue for quite some time and have not been able to fully rectify it. If what we have is of God, and we are to be stewards of what God has given us, and if our bodies are temples, should we not do what we can to keep them in proper working condition? While it is true that God determines the number of our days are we supposed to sit back and do nothing? That seems a dangerous philosophy. I know Steve gives the example of Daniel praying for things that God had already promised in his tapes on Revelation. Obviously Daniel did not just sit back and let God "do his thing." (Please note I am not really speaking to the issue of masturbation at this point) Furthermore, if God gave us knowledge and science, to what lengths should we go to preserve life? Sorry to get off the point, just something I have been curious about that speaks to Chris' assertions. Maybe I should start a new topic somewhere, or maybe there already is one I haven't noticed?
I do hope for responses and continued discussion, these are just thoughts I have had and issues I am still trying to sort out.
Just though I would weigh in on a couple of things here...
I don't mean to proselytize either way or try and twist the laws of God to conform to my own desires. With that said;
First off, Steve's suggestion of never being "attracted to myself" seems a tad ridiculous. I don't think anyone would claim attraction to oneself as reason for masturbating. I realize this was likely tongue-in-cheek, however, personal experience as well as the experience of many others indicates to me that the act of masturbation is certainly not one of self-desire.
Secondly, masturbation is often engaged in before individuals are fully aware of what it even is. Babies have been observed doing it. This obviously does not necessitate the act being "good" or "right." Even for myself, I began masturbating well before I had any idea of what it was. For a long time I thought I was some sort of freak, until I finally heard about masturbation and realized I wasn't unique. I have several friends who had similar experiences as well. Regardless of how one feels about the issue, I know that when I have sons, if that day ever comes, I will talk to them about masturbation. There is a tremendous amount of guilt and shame that is often associated with masturbation, which I think is harmful to the individual. I am convinced that this guilt stems from general religious attitudes about sex as bad and wrong, and the isolation one feels because of this. Again, I am merely saying that a discussion of the issues should exist, and masturbation, as well as sex in general, should not be so hush-hush among Christians. God gave us sex and sexual desires, they should not immediately be associated with shame.
As far as Steve's issues with psychology, I do not wish to confront them all here. However, most statistics in the field tend to be based not on individual psychologists personal experience with patients, but rather on studies and experiments. In the case of masturbation, I am sure this involves survey data. The reliability of surveys is a debate for another day, but suffice it to say they do not merely represent those people with "the kind of problems that send them to therapists."
On the issue of uncleanness, if masturbation is to be avoided as works of the flesh as Steve indicates, then so is sex in general according to the following verse. Furthermore, how does a woman avoid her period, which if I recall correctly brings about uncleanness as well?
Chris asserts that wet dreams fulfill the health benefits of masturbation. While wet dreams are an issue of fantasy in themselves, and one that I personally have felt more guilty about then masturbating, I will not go into it here other then to point out that wet dreams usually end after adolescence. What I believe to be more pertinent and possibly tangential issue is the assumption that personal health is a non-issue for "to die is gain." I myself have wondered about this issue for quite some time and have not been able to fully rectify it. If what we have is of God, and we are to be stewards of what God has given us, and if our bodies are temples, should we not do what we can to keep them in proper working condition? While it is true that God determines the number of our days are we supposed to sit back and do nothing? That seems a dangerous philosophy. I know Steve gives the example of Daniel praying for things that God had already promised in his tapes on Revelation. Obviously Daniel did not just sit back and let God "do his thing." (Please note I am not really speaking to the issue of masturbation at this point) Furthermore, if God gave us knowledge and science, to what lengths should we go to preserve life? Sorry to get off the point, just something I have been curious about that speaks to Chris' assertions. Maybe I should start a new topic somewhere, or maybe there already is one I haven't noticed?
I do hope for responses and continued discussion, these are just thoughts I have had and issues I am still trying to sort out.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I don't think your comments bring confusion to the discussion—any more than the subject itself generates a measure of confusion and uncertainty. Your ideas are as welcome here as are mine, and I understand their rational basis. They might even have a scriptural basis that I have not yet grasped.
My views have been formed by my best effort to deal with the biblical data that I consider to be relevant to the subject, so as to be able to help those who struggle—which is just about every man on earth. My present convictions do not grant me liberty in the area of masturbation, and I do know from experience that the grace of God can be sufficient to conquer this practice, which is, in the lives of many men, a bondage.
My views have been formed by my best effort to deal with the biblical data that I consider to be relevant to the subject, so as to be able to help those who struggle—which is just about every man on earth. My present convictions do not grant me liberty in the area of masturbation, and I do know from experience that the grace of God can be sufficient to conquer this practice, which is, in the lives of many men, a bondage.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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Appropriate and Inappropriate Guilt
Guilt over bad behaviors is appropriate and it should be allowed to do its work of provoking us to accept responsibility and make changes.
However when a man experiences guilt over his sex drive it has the power to push him towards becoming a neurotic and compulsive individual. Neurotic guilt does not want to be forgiven. Neurotic guilt is about punishment.
Shame over being sexual and having sexual struggles is not helpful and shame over some issues can be overdone. Destructive shame causes a person to avoid honesty and help for life change. Feat and shame work together to produce denial.
It is important to know what the Bible really says about sex. Men need to learn how to ignore inappropriate sex based guilt feelings. Every man must learn to manage his sex drive with AMAZING GRACE.
Masturbation can be a source of unnecessary shame, which only fuels distortions and addictive behaviors. In fact among the general public this issue seems to invoke more embarrassment and shame than any other sexual topic.
The Bible and Masturbation
“If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there. But as evening approaches he is to wash himself and at sunset he may return to the camp.” (Deut 23:10-11, NIV)
“When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean until evening. Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean until evening. When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. (Leviticus 15:16-18, NW)
The editors of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia suggest this is a reference to masturbation. The same instruction is given following an emission of semen with or without a wife: “Go take a bath”. Cranking up the shame level to provoke change is unhelpful.
It is important for us to:
• experience amazing grace
• know the true purpose for sex
• grow in self-control; and in doing so we will
• escape distortions and undo the ones that were already there
Guilt over bad behaviors is appropriate and it should be allowed to do its work of provoking us to accept responsibility and make changes.
However when a man experiences guilt over his sex drive it has the power to push him towards becoming a neurotic and compulsive individual. Neurotic guilt does not want to be forgiven. Neurotic guilt is about punishment.
Shame over being sexual and having sexual struggles is not helpful and shame over some issues can be overdone. Destructive shame causes a person to avoid honesty and help for life change. Feat and shame work together to produce denial.
It is important to know what the Bible really says about sex. Men need to learn how to ignore inappropriate sex based guilt feelings. Every man must learn to manage his sex drive with AMAZING GRACE.
Masturbation can be a source of unnecessary shame, which only fuels distortions and addictive behaviors. In fact among the general public this issue seems to invoke more embarrassment and shame than any other sexual topic.
The Bible and Masturbation
“If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there. But as evening approaches he is to wash himself and at sunset he may return to the camp.” (Deut 23:10-11, NIV)
“When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean until evening. Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean until evening. When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. (Leviticus 15:16-18, NW)
The editors of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia suggest this is a reference to masturbation. The same instruction is given following an emission of semen with or without a wife: “Go take a bath”. Cranking up the shame level to provoke change is unhelpful.
It is important for us to:
• experience amazing grace
• know the true purpose for sex
• grow in self-control; and in doing so we will
• escape distortions and undo the ones that were already there
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
You make good points, though my previous comments (of Dec.7) remain true.
I agree completely that there is no reason for a man to feel shame about sexual drive. A man has no choice in the matter of having these drives or not. I consider that sexual choices introduce a separate category, however.
The verses in Leviticus strike me as being relevant to nocturnal emissions, which can be an involuntary "occurance," and not a conscious action taken by the sleeping person. Whether these verses also apply to voluntary and manipulated emissions is a matter that cannot be determined with certainty from the passage.
Again, the assumption that masturbation is inevitable and universal is simply not factually true (I happen to know this from experience). Whether it is permissible in the sight of God is clearly a debatable point.
If one has any uncertainty about this or any other "doubtful matter," it is my advice that one abstain from any such practice until there is solid conviction on biblical grounds as to the permissibility of the thing. In the case of failure, there is grace in Christ.
I agree completely that there is no reason for a man to feel shame about sexual drive. A man has no choice in the matter of having these drives or not. I consider that sexual choices introduce a separate category, however.
The verses in Leviticus strike me as being relevant to nocturnal emissions, which can be an involuntary "occurance," and not a conscious action taken by the sleeping person. Whether these verses also apply to voluntary and manipulated emissions is a matter that cannot be determined with certainty from the passage.
Again, the assumption that masturbation is inevitable and universal is simply not factually true (I happen to know this from experience). Whether it is permissible in the sight of God is clearly a debatable point.
If one has any uncertainty about this or any other "doubtful matter," it is my advice that one abstain from any such practice until there is solid conviction on biblical grounds as to the permissibility of the thing. In the case of failure, there is grace in Christ.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Amen, Steve.
Philippians 4:8
[ Meditate on These Things ] Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
Philippians 4:8
[ Meditate on These Things ] Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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