Roman Catholic and The Bible (to merge)

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darinhouston
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At what point do we disobey our government?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:10 pm

RND wrote: Homer, I'm guessing then you would be in total agreement that men should disobey the President when he signs an executive order that in some way tramples the rights of man?
This is a very challenging question for me personally, and probably deserves its own thread. Not speaking for Homer, but I would only to the extent it conflicts with a command of Scripture or moral law otherwise established by God. Not a personal liberty of my own, but I would hope I would disobey an order that denied the humanity of a class of people and treated them as chattle. This does beg the question of whether the American Revolution was warranted by Christian principles. Does man have the right to reject his own enslavement? I'm not so sure. We are to obey our slavemasters, not overthrow them, are we not? How about I start a thread here:...

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steve
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Re: At what point do we disobey our government?

Post by steve » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:29 pm

I have always questioned the legitimacy of the American Revolution from a biblical standpoint, and have no assurance at this point that Christians ought to have supported it—though, of course, we all (even the non-Americans among us) have benefitted from it.

However, now that we have a government defined by a Constitution, until it is amended or scrapped as the ruling document of the United States, I believe that rulers are limited in their authority by its provisions. This means that, whenever government officials overstep their Constitutional powers, their authority in doing so is nil.

A Christian, then, in following the Constitution contra the illegitimate decisions of the leaders, is not even committing an act of civil disobedience, in the traditional sense of that word. The one who upholds the Constitution upholds the supreme law of the land. The leader who violates it is the lawbreaker, and is guilty of civil disobedience.

Of course, Christians might have to stand even against the laws that the Constitution approves, if they are contrary to scripture. That is what I understand Christian civil disobedience to be. Of course, this does not mean that a Christian is required to stand up against every act of government that is not Constitutionally valid. Some may make this their campaign, but they definitely will have their work cut out for them! There are so many violations of the Constitution in American law (e.g. especially divorce and family law)! Those who are called by God to resist these abuses have my blessing!

When any government, whether acting in accord with or against the Constitution, requires a Christian to violate the commands of Christ, the Christian must, of course, resist and accept whatever penalties accrue to that resistance.

Much of what I have said here comes from my (admittedly limited) understanding of American history and law.

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Re: At what point do we disobey our government?

Post by Murf » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:40 pm

Since I have been trying to see myself as a member of God's Kingdom first and an American second, this to me is a very difficult question to be dogmatic about. I would have given a completely different answer 10 years ago. I feel strongly that American Christians are too incorporated into the American culture to really stand out as an example of Christ's Kingdom. (As the early Christian's did). So on one hand I think accepting the abuse of government would be a way to distinguish ourselves. But on the other hand I have seen real Christians make a real impact on peoples lives by being involved with the system.

So until there is an law passed to worship the President, I would take each instance as it comes with prayer.
tim

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RND
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Re: At what point do we disobey our government?

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:11 pm

darinhouston wrote:This is a very challenging question for me personally, and probably deserves its own thread. Not speaking for Homer, but I would only to the extent it conflicts with a command of Scripture or moral law otherwise established by God.


What "moral law" Darin. I've been told it doesn't exist! If the president passes an executive order that takes away a man's property or business in favor of nationalization for ANY perceived threat is that right? I think Jonathan had a parable for David regarding a similarity.
Not a personal liberty of my own, but I would hope I would disobey an order that denied the humanity of a class of people and treated them as chattle.


Ah, but this is exactly the world we live in today. That's why a private institution such as the Federal Reserve can't make you liable for the national debt they ring up! :D
This does beg the question of whether even the American Revolution was warranted by Christian principles. Does man have the right to reject his own enslavement? I'm not so sure. We are to obey our slavemasters, not overthrow them, are we not? How about I start a thread here:...

http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2624
Excellent! Another thread devoted to something I brought up!
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: At what point do we disobey our government?

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:16 pm

Mar 12:16 And they brought [it]. And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. 17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

If we believe God, that everything made belongs to Him, including the very souls (i.e. people) He created, then what's the big deal if Caesar thinks it belongs to him? If Caesar wants it, give it to him.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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steve
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Re: At what point do we disobey our government?

Post by steve » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:09 pm

RND,

Are you thinking only of taxation here, or are you referring to observance of every governmental mandate?

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Re: At what point do we disobey our government?

Post by steve » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:17 pm

RND,

As is often the case, I do not find it easy to discern your points in your last post.

You wrote:
What "moral law" Darin. I've been told it doesn't exist! If the president passes an executive order that takes away a man's property or business in favor of nationalization for ANY perceived threat is that right? I think Jonathan had a parable for David regarding a similarity.
First, when you say you have been told that no moral law exists, are you referring to the claims that the State and secular culture have made about this subject, or are you referring to somebody's theological position here?

Second, I am curious about the parable to which you alluded. Are you referring to Nathan's parable about the stolen sheep—or is there another parable that I am not thinking of?

You wrote:
Ah, but this is exactly the world we live in today. That's why a private institution such as the Federal Reserve can't make you liable for the national debt they ring up!
I am not sure if you are just making a sarcastic remark, or if there is some point you are trying to contribute to the question of civil disobedience. I don't have any problem with the former, but if it is the latter, I would be much obliged if you would clarify it, so that your point may be appreciated.

And, in any case, I am noticing a tendency for this discussion to drift away from the subject of the Catholic Church and the Bible (not just in your posts).

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RND
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Re: At what point do we disobey our government?

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:28 pm

steve wrote:First, when you say you have been told that no moral law exists, are you referring to the claims that the State and secular culture have made about this subject, or are you referring to somebody's theological position here?
This is simply a general observation. Whether it is believed from the secularist POV or from a theological standpoint to me is insignificant. And no, it is not specifically from this forum. I run into lots of folks that think the law is dead.
Second, I am curious about the parable to which you alluded. Are you referring to Nathan's parable about the stolen sheep—or is there another parable that I am not thinking of?
Yes, I said Jonathan and meant Nathan. My bad. I didn't catch that. Good pick-up.
You wrote:
Ah, but this is exactly the world we live in today. That's why a private institution such as the Federal Reserve can't make you liable for the national debt they ring up!
I am not sure if you are just making a sarcastic remark, or if there is some point you are trying to contribute to the question of civil disobedience. I don't have any problem with the former, but if it is the latter, I would be much obliged if you would clarify it, so that your point may be appreciated.
I used the word "can't" in the above when I should have used "can" instead. :oops: Bad fingers I guess. :D

I'll clarify Steve. The money in circulation in this country is the property of the FRS (Federal Reserve System) which is a privately held banking consortium and it is fiat (by declaration) and backed by the full faith and credit of the United States, i.e. you and I. Instead of ending slavery they made everyone a slave! :D

The fact of the matter that in order to enjoy commerce in this country credit must be extended by the FRS. For the record however I do not advocate any civil disobedience of any kind against the state (government). Caesar (the state, the government, take your pick) believes it's theirs. So be it. I know it's not, everything belongs to God, no biggie. No wonder I feel no compelling nature to vote anymore.
And, in any case, I am noticing a tendency for this discussion to drift away from the subject of the Catholic Church and the Bible (not just in your posts).
Thanks for noticing! That's why I have attempted to take these conversations to other places and I'm grateful to Darin for seeing a need for another topic regarding the role of Christians and the government.

Hope that helps. I do need to learn to type slower however. 30 WPM with basically four finger ain't too bad!
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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darinhouston
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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible (to merge)

Post by darinhouston » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:21 pm

RND wrote:This is simply a general observation. Whether it is believed from the secularist POV or from a theological standpoint to me is insignificant. And no, it is not specifically from this forum. I run into lots of folks that think the law is dead.
By moral law, I don't mean the "law" of Moses. I meant to say "natural law," the fundamental Truths of right and wrong in nature as dictated by Creation which we "know in our gut" and the subject of much of Aristotle and Aquinus, et al. Here's a snippet from wikipedia:
wikipedia wrote:Christian natural lawDespite pagan associations with natural law theory, a number (though not all) of the early Church Fathers sought to incorporate it into Christianity. This was true in the West more so than in the East. The most notable among these was Augustine of Hippo, who equated natural law with man's prelapsarian state; as such, a life according to nature was no longer possible and men needed instead to seek salvation through the divine law and grace of Jesus Christ. In the Twelfth Century, Gratian reversed this, equating the natural and divine laws. Thomas Aquinas restored Natural Law to its independent state, asserting that, as the perfection of human reason, it could approach but not fully comprehend the Eternal law and needed to be supplemented by Divine law. See also Biblical law in Christianity.

All human laws were to be judged by their conformity to the natural law. An unjust law was in a sense no law at all. At this point, the natural law was not only used to pass judgment on the moral worth of various laws, but also to determine what the law said in the first place. This could result in some tension.[15]
RND, it's full of essays and the sort, but you may enjoy this topic... http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=152

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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible (to merge)

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:45 pm

darinhouston wrote:
RND wrote:This is simply a general observation. Whether it is believed from the secularist POV or from a theological standpoint to me is insignificant. And no, it is not specifically from this forum. I run into lots of folks that think the law is dead.
By moral law, I don't mean the "law" of Moses.
Neither did I Darin!
I meant to say "natural law," the fundamental Truths of right and wrong in nature as dictated by Creation which we "know in our gut" and the subject of much of Aristotle and Aquinus, et al. Here's a snippet from wikipedia:
Isn't this a gift from God? The "law" written on our hearts? For example, before the promise of the New Covenant was ever made Nathan (Thanks, Steve!) pointed out to David his sin. David was convicted to the very core of his soul. See Psalms 51. The "law" was revealed to David and brought to bear by the Holy Spirit.

Same thing with Joseph. He was tempted by Potipher's wife yet refuse and paid the price. This was long before the Moral law was given. Obviously then Joseph had some knowledge of right and wrong.
wikipedia wrote:Christian natural lawDespite pagan associations with natural law theory, a number (though not all) of the early Church Fathers sought to incorporate it into Christianity. This was true in the West more so than in the East. The most notable among these was Augustine of Hippo, who equated natural law with man's prelapsarian state; as such, a life according to nature was no longer possible and men needed instead to seek salvation through the divine law and grace of Jesus Christ. In the Twelfth Century, Gratian reversed this, equating the natural and divine laws. Thomas Aquinas restored Natural Law to its independent state, asserting that, as the perfection of human reason, it could approach but not fully comprehend the Eternal law and needed to be supplemented by Divine law. See also Biblical law in Christianity.

All human laws were to be judged by their conformity to the natural law. An unjust law was in a sense no law at all. At this point, the natural law was not only used to pass judgment on the moral worth of various laws, but also to determine what the law said in the first place. This could result in some tension.[15]
Darin, as I like to say at times, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while." :D I especially disagree with the view attributed to Thomas Aquinas, because I believe through the law we can and do see the character of God and what he desires.
RND, it's full of essays and the sort, but you may enjoy this topic... http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=152
Thanks for the link Darin, I'll check it out!
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
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