Question for Steve: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

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morbo3000
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Question for Steve: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by morbo3000 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:43 pm

In another thread, we've been talking about Bethel church, and the observances some paganists gave following attending their events.

One thing that struck me was the witches' matter of fact manner in which they hung around Christians. There was no sense of animosity with Christians.

This is a contrast from some of Steve's experiences described in his series on spiritual warfare. That he moved into towns that were spiritually hostile to his ministry.

I wonder what is at work here. Modern paganism isn't the same as traditional occultism which was antagonistic to Christianity. In the past, it seemed we were lined up between hostile forces, good spirit and evil spirit. Represented by gods spirit, and the demonic. And the occultists were the ones praying against Steve. Modern pagans are more spiritual, without taking sides.

Question for Steve and others.... Can you compare and contrast the differing attitudes of the paganists and occultists you've encountered? Can the spirit realm be so sharply divided between good and evil? When a pagan witch describes the color of energy in a bethel service, do we just chalk that up to demonism manifested in the church? I.e. Would a pagan only be capable of sensing and identifying demonic power?

Thanks in advance


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Last edited by morbo3000 on Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by dizerner » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:40 am

Can the spirit realm be so sharply divided between good and evil?
What do you think Jesus would say. Something about he who is not with me...?

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Re: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by morbo3000 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:16 pm

dizerner wrote:
Can the spirit realm be so sharply divided between good and evil?
What do you think Jesus would say. Something about he who is not with me...?
There is a difference between antagonism and ambivalence.

The witches in the story were not antagonistic about the church. They didn't go in with an attitude of disrupting it.

This is different than Steve's experiences. Seems like a shift has occurred.

Also, this is a practical/experiential question. Not theological. Compare and contrast pagans of old and new, and their relationship with Christianity
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Re: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by dizerner » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:38 pm

... is againnst me.

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Re: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by jaydam » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:58 pm

Could it not be a reflection so much of the witches and a shift in paganism, but of the church which does not elicit such animosity from the witches by making them feel unchallenged and comfortable? Even reassured through "prophecy" that they are on the right road?

Perhaps if that church was a true church, you would have seen a different reaction from the witches?

A strong church might have caused a strong response...

When Christianity doesn't antagonize the enemy is there a problem? The church should provoke a response.

I believe no witch should feel as comfortable as they did to step foot into a church and walk away mostly unaffected if not reassured. And that is the church's fault, not the witches'.

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Re: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by morbo3000 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:31 pm

I wonder if there are others on the board who have experience with demons, spirits, pagans, witches, et al. I'm hoping Steve will chime in here at some point.
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Re: Question for Steve: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by steve » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:53 pm

I just discovered this thread.

I was thinking similarly to Jaydam. Many dead churches have had their share of occultists in their midst—either as nefarious invaders, or as apathetic participants who feel at home among mildly-spiritually-oriented folks, who don't necessarily challenge their spiritual standing. Occultists might even mistake these churches for havens of likeminded folks—in fact, this might not be that much of a mistake on their part.

In the mid-eighties, when our community/school was located in the little Oregon coastal town of Bandon, where witches proudly identified themselves as such (someone said there were 300 of them, in a town whose posted population was 2,300), there was a best-selling New Age author living nearby, and he owned the largest store in town, which was a New Age store. His mistress got saved through one of our evangelistic efforts and came to live in our community. She said that all the occultists in town feared our group, though (she said) they didn't fear any of the churches in the town (there were less than seven or eight small, evangelical churches there).

In New testament times, there were demon possessed people in the synagogues, who apparently went unnoticed and undisturbed until Jesus preached there—then they erupted into frenzied opposition. I obviously don't have the same effect on the demons that Jesus did, since I am not Him. However, we have had a number of demonic/occultic attacks against our ministry, in California, in Oregon, and in Idaho.

In 1978, I was leading a ministry house in Albany, Oregon. A woman from town (we actually first met her at the local Calvary Chapel) began coming regularly to our meetings. Inexplicably, the relationships in the house began to deteriorate with no perceptible cause. Fast friends became offended at each other for no reason. The place began to break-up, and some there suggested to me that we were under a demonic attack, which I discredited (my upbringing had conditioned me to not be quick to blame the devil for carnal behavior in Christians). In a short time, our promising ministry which had begun to make an impact on the community, simply had to be disbanded, though no one could account for the cause. After the last person moved out, we found a journal belonging to this woman I mentioned earlier. In it were recorded two-way conversations between her and a spirit that was speaking to her. The information from the spirit was directing her in ways to break-up our ministry and to neutralize me personally. We were not really aware of what was happening, or we might better have resisted this attack.

There are a number of people, including myself, who see, in certain destructive things that came on my ministry, and on the church we were attending in Idaho, the work of demons. Our town was built on land belonging to an unfriendly Native American tribe (one whose famous chief had once been a Christian, but who later renounced Christ and tore up his Bible). It is my suspicion, in retrospect, that members of this tribe were directing hostile spiritual powers against our church and my family. The results were very much like those I described in Albany, Oregon.

I am only mentioning a few instances. There are at least one or two more that come to mind, which I will not take the time to relate here. Some may count me superstitious in attributing these things to demonic/occultic hostility, but such people would be less inclined to think this if they had actually been present to watch what occurred. The sad thing is, these attacks were sometimes the more successful against us due to my reluctance to hastily interpret a situation as having demons behind it, for fear of becoming too superstitious.

In 1975, I visited a gathering, in order to investigate a movement, led by a false messiah figure in Meriden, CT, and even though I was sitting obscurely in one of the rows near the back, in a meeting hall with hundreds of adherents and inquirers, one of the "apostles" came up to me and told me I was "quenching the spirit" simply by being there. They didn't know me from Adam, and I had done nothing but to sit in an observe from the pews.

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Re: Question for Steve: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by morbo3000 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:22 pm

Thanks Steve.

My additional question is if you have had any contact with what might be called neo-pagans. They identify themselves with more nature gods, or pantheons. The bear the word witch, and talk about practicing magic. The witches in the article described themselves that way. But they don't seem to have any animosity with other organized religions. So they seem different from the occult witches, and the like you experienced. Any idea what's going on?
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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Re: Question for Steve: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by steve » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:54 pm

All the pagans I have heard from actually deny the belief in the devil and demons. "Earth magic" or "Nature Magic" is, in their minds, derived from the "the earth mother"—not demonic spirits. I don't know what they gain by this distinction, but I am of the opinion that real magic is always demonic, regardless what the practitioner understands it to be. It is not surprising that those who do not see themselves as being in league with evil powers would think nothing of associating with Christians or other religious faiths. One does not have to know the powers, however, in order to be in their grip. I am sure that the Jews, whom Jesus identified as "of your father the devil," did not consider themselves to be in league with Satan.

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Re: Question for Steve: Paganism, spirit and spirits.

Post by morbo3000 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:56 pm

Thanks Steve.
Jeff
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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