adulterous marriage question

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Post by _Paidion » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:42 pm

It seems to me that Jesus made a distinction between marriage and mere cohabitation in His manner of addressing the personal history of the Samaritan woman (John 4:18). He seemed to recognize the legitimacy of five consecutive husbands (implying valid marriage), but He did not place her current paramour in the same category.
The woman answered him, "I have no man." Jesus said to her, "You are right in saying, ‘I have no man’; for you have had five men, and he whom you now have is not your man; this you said truly." John 4:17,18

Is it not possible, Steve, that Jesus was merely saying that the man with whom she was now living, was not her own, but some one else's man? In other words, she was living in adultery. It seems to me that this would be equivalent to Christ's other teaching that if a man leaves his woman and marries another, he commits adultery.
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:55 pm

Emmet:
It looks like one portion of the Stromata is in Latin in my ANF series, but that is because the editors for some reason decided not to render it into English, but to keep it under the veil of an academic language. This is an intriguing decision, as it makes one wonder what the editors found so objectionable that they wished to keep it from the eyes of the general readership(?!), but it does not indicate that the source language was Latin. In the nineteenth century, when the ANF series was produced, it probably could be assumed that serious scholars would be literate in Latin, and so I expect that the Greek text of Clement was rendered into Latin for that publication, just like the other chapters of the Stromata (clearly Greek, from the footnotes) were rendered into English for the series. Latin was simply chosen to limit the field of those who could access the translation.
You are quite right. The Stromata was written in Greek. What follows is a quotation of it from Eusebius. Eusebius also wrote in Greek. I am not sure who translated Book 3 of the Stromata into Latin, but the fact that the translators used the ordinary Latin word for "marry" seems to indicate that they, too, recognized that the word meant "copulate."

From Eusebius (260 – 340 A.D) Church History
AT this time the so-called sect of the Nicolaitans made its appearance and lasted for a very short time. Mention is made of it in the Apocalypse of
John. They boasted that the author of their sect was Nicolaus, one of the
deacons who, with Stephen, were appointed by the apostles for the
purpose of ministering to the poor. Clement of Alexandria, in the third
book of his Stromata, relates the following things concerning him. “They
say that he had a beautiful wife, and after the ascension of the Savior, being accused by the apostles of jealousy, he led her into their midst and gave permission to any one that wished to marry her. For they say that this was in accord with that saying of his, that one ought to abuse the flesh.

And those that have followed his heresy, imitating blindly and foolishly
that which was done and said, commit fornication without shame. But I
understand that Nicolaus had to do with no other woman than her to
whom he was married
, and that, so far as his children are concerned, his daughters continued in a state of virginity until old age, and his son
remained uncorrupt.


Eusebius apparently thought that Clement used the word “marry” appropriately, as referring to copulation. At the same time, Eusebius stated (see bolded quote) that “Nicolaus had to do with no other woman that her to whom he was married.” Is Eusebius now using “marry” in a different sense from that of his quote from Clement? I don’t think so. When he said that Nicolaus was married, did he not simply mean the woman with whom he was living and had sexual relations?
As for Clement - anyone marginally familiar with his work knows that he indulges in florid and creative use of language and imagery. Even if the Greek text undergirds the sense of "marry" in your chosen passage, it is not impossible that Clement is exercising poetic license. I would prefer to see an example from another church father when establishing common linguistic usage.


I'm not so sure about the "florid and creative use of language and imagery." That may be so, his works did not strike me in that way. He seems to be pretty straightforward about sexual improprieties in the Stromata.

Here are some other quotes from Clement of Alexandria, as well as from Justin Martyr and from Eusbeius, which seem to employ the word "marry" in the sense of sexual intercourse:

From Justin Martyr’s Discourse to the Greeks, last sentence of chapter 3:
For what need is there of speaking of the goad of Oedipus, and the murder of Laius, and the marrying his mother, and the mutual slaughter of those who were at once his brothers and his sons?

I know this is a story about a god. Nevertheless, I don’t think the story has him “marrying” his mother in the sense of forming a legal contract with her, or promising a permanent bond with her. Does the story of Oedipus in Greek mythology claim any deeper relationship between him and his mother other than sex?

Clement of Alexandria “Exhortation to the Heathen”, chapter 4
…and again that of Demetrius, who was raised to the rank of the gods; and where he alighted from his horse on his entrance into Athens is the temple of Demetrius the Alighter; and altars were raised to him everywhere, and nuptials with Athene assigned to him by the Athenians. But he disdained the goddess, as he could not marry the statue; and taking the courtesan Lamia, he ascended the Acropolis, and lay with her on the couch of Athene, showing to the old virgin the postures of the young courtesan.

Is this story not saying that because he could not have sex with the statue of Athene, and that the goddess herself was not personally available, he copulated with the courtesan Lamia to satisfy his needs?

Clement of Alexandria “Stromata”, Book 2, chapter 23
But they who approve of marriage say, Nature has adapted us for marriage, as is evident from the structure of our bodies, which are male and female.

This passage could be interpreted from almost any point of view, but it seems to me that Clement is saying that nature has adapted men for sexual intercourse with women, as is evident from the structure of their respective bodies.

Eusebius “Church History” Book 3, Chapter 28
And Dionysius, who was bishop of the parish of Alexandria in our day, in the second book of his work On the Promises,where he says some things concerning the Apocalypse of John which he draws from tradition, mentions this same man in the following words:
“But (they say that) Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one. And as he was himself devoted to the pleasures of the body and altogether sensual in his nature, he dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired,
namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying, and in festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims, under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace.” These are the words of Dionysius.

Eusebius explains “the delights of the belly and of sexual passion” in the words “in eating and drinking and marrying.”

.
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Post by _Anonymous » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:40 pm

Paidion wrote:I know this is a story about a god. Nevertheless, I don’t think the story has him “marrying” his mother in the sense of forming a legal contract with her, or promising a permanent bond with her. Does the story of Oedipus in Greek mythology claim any deeper relationship between him and his mother other than sex?
Sorry, Paidion, but in the story Oedipus did marry his mother, although he didn't know it was his mother.
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:41 pm

Thank you, Michelle! I remember now. I had a senior moment of illiteracy.
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Post by _Rae » Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:22 pm

So let's say that a woman (woman 1) has sexual relations for the first time with a particular guy (guy 1). That guy (guy 1) had had sexual relations with another woman (woman 2) previous to this woman (woman 1). Then the woman (woman 1) and the guy (guy 1) break it off and she gets married to a different man (guy 2) who hadn't had sexual relations with anyone until her (woman 1).

So, according to some of you.... guy 1 is married to woman 2; woman 1 is maried to guy 1; and guy 2 is married to woman 1.

It just doesn't make sense! None of these people can actually be with the people that they are married to (maybe guy 1 could, but what if woman 2 had had sexual relations with someone else prior to him?)

It just doesn't seem that it could practically work out.
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:33 pm

Although the verb "marry" was often used simply in the sense of sexual relations, the adjective "married" seems to have meant being with the person with whom you had sexual relations on a permanent (hopefully) or semi-permanent basis.

To put it in a nutshell,

"Marrying" (having sexual relations with) a person, does not imply being "married" to the person, unless it continues on an ongoing basis.

Thus, as Christ taught, if a man leaves his woman (or wife), the one he is married to, and marries (has sexual relations with) another, he is committing adultery.
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Post by _Rae » Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:17 pm

Thanks Paidon! So you can marry someone without being married to them? Interesting.
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Post by _foc » Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:23 pm

Steve wrote:Paidion,

I don't know that a single example from Clement, or any other writer, can demonstrate beyond a doubt what the current and common usage of a word was in a given time and culture. As Emmett said, some writers (including Clement) take poetic license, and we would need a larger selection of passages from more than one writer to establish universal usage practices.

The example from Jesus' comments on divorce and remarriage does not strike me as establishing your point. To "put away" or to "send away" a wife, according to most of the scholars I have consulted, seems to have been an idiom equivalent to "divorce." The statement of Jesus, in its entirety, makes good sense to me if we understand Him to be speaking about divorce.

It seems to me that Jesus made a distinction between marriage and mere cohabitation in His manner of addressing the personal history of the Samaritan woman (John 4:18). He seemed to recognize the legitimacy of five consecutive husbands (implying valid marriage), but He did not place her current paramour in the same category.
Excellent points, Steve.
:)
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Post by _foc » Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:34 pm

In our modern world there are many couples "living together", who have never committed themselves to each other for life, some with a marriage certificate, and some without.
How is this possible?
The marriage certificate, with its WITNESSES of the covenant having been made, would be written proof of this commitment.

Is it your view that none of them are truly married? Or, in your view, is the possession of a legal marriage certificate the essence of marriage?
My view is that two people 'living together' without having made a covenant of marriage in which they BIND themselves to each other as husband and wife are living in fornication (porneai, which is ALL illicit sex as quite easily shown from scripture such as Acts 15, Ephesians and Colossians).

It two people covenanted themselves together as man and wife, in whatever way, then in my view they ARE husband and wife.

What this means is that the man who takes this woman as his wife, but without a license, promising himself to her, then later he leaves, in Gods eyes he is abandoning a marriage as he DID covenant himself to her.

I dont care about licenses and certificates one way or the other, personally. a COVENANT that is made between two people IS binding before God, even if some people think that its not.

But sex alone does not make a marriage. There MUST be an intent to be man and wife and there MUST be some sort of covenant / promise in place to be as such.

Rebecca knew very well that she was going to be Isaacs wife. Just as Adam and Eve KNEW that this was Gods intent for them...to be husband and wife.

Without that intent, without some binding covenant of some sort...it is simply whoredom..plain and simple.
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