What makes a marriage?

Post by **_Michelle** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:52 am

Paidion,

By the way...

From Justin Martyr’s Discourse to the Greeks, last sentence of chapter 3:
For what need is there of speaking of the goad of Oedipus, and the murder of Laius, and the marrying his mother, and the mutual slaughter of those who were at once his brothers and his sons?

I know this is a story about a god. Nevertheless, I don’t think the story has him “marrying” his mother in the sense of forming a legal contract with her, or promising a permanent bond with her. Does the story of Oedipus in Greek mythology claim any deeper relationship between him and his mother other than sex?

Yes.
As I recall the story, Oedipus and his mother were really married, although he kind of won her as a prize after he killed his father. He did not realize that it was his father he had killed nor his mother that he had married because he was raised by a shepherd who found him after he was left outside the city to die of exposure. The reason his parents, Laius and Jocasta, tried to commit infanticide is because of a prophecy that Oedipus would, in fact, kill his father and marry his mother. He is not a god, just a mythical figure, whose name Freud used to describe a troubling sexual perversion.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:34 pm

Rae wrote:I think I've been taught that "dismissing" a wife was the procedure for divorce back then. Perhaps I've been mis-informed?

If you have not been misinformed, then I have difficulty making sense of the following:

Matthew 5:31 "It has been said, ‘Anyone who dismisses his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’

If "dismissing" a wife were the means of divorcing her, then why would should he give her a certificate of divorce? They would already be divorced.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:41 pm

Rae wrote:It seems as if you are saying that the Lord was saying to make sure your divorce was all taken care of before you take up with the next woman. In my opinion, we have a lot of that today, even in the church. It is a mess, it destroys lives and families, and I don't think that's what the Lord was getting at.

I fully agree with you, Rachel. What it seemed I was saying was not what I intended to say. I don't think legal divorce in itself is recognized by God anymore than legal marriage in itself. A series of legal marriages (with no real commitment) and divorces (with no real justification) are, in my opinion and I think in God's view, simply legalized adultery.

Post by **_Michelle** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:07 pm

Paidion wrote:
Rae wrote:It seems as if you are saying that the Lord was saying to make sure your divorce was all taken care of before you take up with the next woman. In my opinion, we have a lot of that today, even in the church. It is a mess, it destroys lives and families, and I don't think that's what the Lord was getting at.
I fully agree with you, Rachel. What it seemed I was saying was not what I intended to say. I don't think legal divorce in itself is recognized by God anymore than legal marriage in itself. A series of legal marriages (with no real commitment) and divorces (with no real justification) are, in my opinion and I think in God's view, simply legalized adultery.

hehe

That was me, not Rae, although what a compliment to be mistaken for Rae!

Thanks for this post. I agree!

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:31 pm

Michelle, I had a senior moment there!

Actually, it just dawned on me a few minutes ago, and I went quickly to my computer to change my post to "Michelle said" before you saw it. But I didn't make it in time. I knew I was answering you, but why I used Rachel's name, I don't know.

And now I have a question for you, Michelle. What if John and Martha lived together for 20 years (or maybe only for one year, or even one month)but were never legally married. John goes away on a business trip, and Mike comes along and legally married Martha while John is away.
Is Mike, as a man legally married to Martha, committing adultery against John? Would it make a difference if John and Martha had been legally married? If so, then does God somehow consider legal marriage as crucial in determining the morality of Mike and Martha's relationship?

Post by **_Michelle** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:48 pm

Paidion wrote: And now I have a question for you, Michelle. What if John and Martha lived together for 20 years (or maybe only for one year, or even one month)but were never legally married. John goes away on a business trip, and Mike comes along and legally married Martha while John is away.
Is Mike, as a man legally married to Martha, committing adultery against John? Would it make a difference if John and Martha had been legally married? If so, then does God somehow consider legal marriage as crucial in determining the morality of Mike and Martha's relationship?

Yes, Paidion, I think Mike is committing adultery if he marries Martha. Perhaps if John and Martha had only been together for a month, there might be other terms for her than "adulteress," however.

The only difference it would make if they had been legally married is that the state would have a say in what was going on and Martha could not be legally married to both men at once. Also, if John and Martha were legally married and Mike came along and Martha left with him, I'm not sure the state would care very much. (Of course, I live in a no-fault divorce/community property state, which means the state doesn't care much at all what happens in a marriage, except how much property was accrued.)

I don't believe that God considers legal marriage as crucial in determining the morality of Mike and Martha's, nor John and Martha's relationships.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:24 pm

Michelle wrote:[Oedipus] is not a god, just a mythical figure, whose name Freud used to describe a troubling sexual perversion.

According to Homer [the historical Homer] in both the Odyssey and the Illiad:
I also saw angels Epicaste mother of god Oedipodes whose awful lot it was to marry her own son without suspecting it. He married her after having killed his father, but the gods proclaimed the whole story to the world; whereon he remained king of Thebes, in great grief for the spite the gods had borne him; but Epicaste went to the house of the mighty jailor Hades, having hanged herself for grief, and the avenging spirits haunted him as for an outraged mother- to his ruing bitterly thereafter. Macisteus went once to Thebes after the fall of Oedipus, to attend his funeral, and he beat all the people of Cadmus.

Post by **_Michelle** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:14 pm

Paidion wrote:
Michelle wrote:[Oedipus] is not a god, just a mythical figure, whose name Freud used to describe a troubling sexual perversion.
According to Homer [the historical Homer] in both the Odyssey and the Illiad:
I also saw angels Epicaste mother of god Oedipodes whose awful lot it was to marry her own son without suspecting it. He married her after having killed his father, but the gods proclaimed the whole story to the world; whereon he remained king of Thebes, in great grief for the spite the gods had borne him; but Epicaste went to the house of the mighty jailor Hades, having hanged herself for grief, and the avenging spirits haunted him as for an outraged mother- to his ruing bitterly thereafter. Macisteus went once to Thebes after the fall of Oedipus, to attend his funeral, and he beat all the people of Cadmus.

Ok, Paidion, I guess Homer would know better than me ... especially since I studied this stuff years and years ago. I always believed the theme of the story was the limit of human free-will when it comes up against the will of the gods or fate, which means that Oedipus had to be a mortal.

If he was a god, he sure was a clueless god.