How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

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Clint
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How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by Clint » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:02 pm

Hey,

I do not know if Im bringing this up under the right topic or not, but here is something i've never been asked. I am dialoging with an atheist who used to be a believer (someone I knew of from my past, but not personally) and he said prayer is a placebo, how would one respond to this? Thanks!

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steve
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Re: How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by steve » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:45 pm

I would say: "If there is no God, then you would have to be right. However, if there is a God who answers prayer, then your disbelief in him would place you in a particularly unqualified position to pronounce on the topic. I am persuaded that such a God exists, so you will have to disprove my belief before I can find your claim about prayer compelling. If you cannot do so, there is no reason for me to see your comment as anything more than an expression of cluelessness."

If I was personally in the discussion, I could also add: "If prayer is in fact a placebo, and if apparent answers to prayer are merely lucky coincidences, then I must be the luckiest man in the world, since all my bills have been paid on time for 40 years by a thousand coincidences that I mistook for answered prayers."

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Clint
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Re: How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by Clint » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:04 pm

Hey Steve! I wasnt sure how to repond to that. I thought about granting him that prayer can "seem" like a placebo in the sense that prayer can change ones mind about a particular situation or comfort through a difficult times (even though that not the main point of praying), but I didnt think about shifting the burden of proof back to him, great idea. Thanks for your input!

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Paidion
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Re: How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:48 pm

Steve wrote:I am persuaded that such a God exists, so you will have to disprove my belief before I can find your claim about prayer compelling.
I don't think this will do. For it is impossible to disprove the the existence of anything (except perhaps conceptual entities such as in mathematics).

What if I said to someone, "I am persuaded that the Phoenix exists, so you will have to disprove my belief, before I can find compelling, your claim that Clement of Rome believed in mythical entities." Would that be valid?
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steve
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Re: How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by steve » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:03 am

Hi Paidion,

I wouldn't think that belief in the phoenix bird would have much in common with belief in God, and the fact that someone of significance can be said to have believed in the phoenix bird is not very similar to the reasons that we believe in God.

First, because I do not think anyone has ever claimed to have seen or had any experience with such a bird, whereas millions of sane people testify to having a personally transforming relationship with God.

Second, because belief in God could arise from and be sustained by deduction from observable phenomena alone, even without anyone claiming to have encountered Him, whereas belief in the phoenix is neither intuitive nor does it arise from deductions from observable phenomena.

Third, while belief in the phoenix belongs to a milieu of mythology which was current during times more superstitious than our own, theism remains the belief of the overwhelming majority of reasonable and lucid thinkers, despite the fact that all ancient mythologies of the past have been debunked and rendered incredible by the advance of scientific knowledge.

These are not proofs that theism is true, but they illustrate that it is in a class entirely different from belief in the phoenix.

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Paidion
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Re: How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:17 am

Greetings Steve. Thank you for your response.

It seems to me that even if belief in the Phoenix and belief in God are dually inequivalent in category, this fact is irrelevant to my main premise that proof of non-existence (of at least some things) is intrinsically impossible.

However, in deference to your assumption that this inequivalence is relevant, I propose consideration of beliefs in the existence of the Greek gods or the Roman gods. Many people in the Greek and Roman cultures around the time of Christ testified that these gods answered their prayers and helped them in some way. So would my analogous argument be valid if "the Phoenix" were substituted with, say, "Zeus"? For example:

"I am persuaded that Zeus exists, so you will have to disprove my belief before I can find your claim about his not answering prayer compelling."

Perhaps I am persuaded that Zeus exists because of ancient testimony of people who claimed benefits from him, and perhaps I have tried praying to him myself, and found that I was healed of diseases, provided with sustenance, etc. All I am trying to bring out is that in principle, no one can prove the non-existence of Zeus, Mars, God, or any other entity which is presumed by some to exist outside of the material universe — not because they exist, but that proof of their non-existence is impossible.

I disbelieve that there is life in the material universe outside the earth. But if this were true, how could it be proved? It couldn't.

Most modern people disbelieve in the existence of the Phoenix bird. I am inclined to disbelieve also. But to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever proved that it does not exist. Nor can the Phoenix be proved not to exist, unless every conceivable square foot of land and sea throughout the earth were simultaneously searched, without success. However, when it comes to gods, there is no possibility of proving the non-existence of any of them.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Michelle
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Re: How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by Michelle » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:36 pm

Paidion wrote:"I am persuaded that Zeus exists, so you will have to disprove my belief before I can find your claim about his not answering prayer compelling."

Paidion, would it have been acceptable if Steve had said, "I am persuaded that such a God exists, so you will have to persuade me that He does not before I can find your claim about prayer compelling?"

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steve
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Re: How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by steve » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:44 pm

The point was that the critic claimed prayer is a placebo. That means it has no genuine effect, other than upon the mind of the person using it. This is the same as claiming that prayer is not really answered by God. In other words, the critic is already asserting a universal negative: that prayer is never answered by God.

I am simply saying that, before the universal negative he is asserting can be taken seriously, there is another universal negative that would have to be proven—namely, that God does not exist. Of course, no one can prove a universal negative, which means that no one could prove that Zeus, the phoenix, or the real God exist. This is not my problem, since I am not trying to prove the non-existence of any of these. It is the atheist who has the burden of proof to fulfill.

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Paidion
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Re: How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:46 am

My point is that the atheist cannot bear the burden of proof of the non-existence of God, not because God exists, but, as you say "no one can prove a universal negative".

Steve, I am sure you believe that prayer to Zeus is never answered by Zeus (universal negative), since you believe that Zeus doesn't exist. What if a believer in Zeus and in his ability to answer prayer, tells you that the burden of proof in on you to prove his non-existence? Isn't that an exact analogy to what you are asking the atheist to do?

My point is exactly what you yourself stated, "Of course, no one can prove a universal negative..." Because this is the case, it doesn't make sense to tell the atheist that the burden of proof is on him to prove God's non-existence, for this cannot be proved, not because God exists, but because in principle (for want of a better word), it cannot be proved.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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steve
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Re: How do I respond to this...prayer is just a placebo?

Post by steve » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:57 am

Steve, I am sure you believe that prayer to Zeus is never answered by Zeus (universal negative), since you believe that Zeus doesn't exist. What if a believer in Zeus and in his ability to answer prayer, tells you that the burden of proof in on you to prove his non-existence? Isn't that an exact analogy to what you are asking the atheist to do?
Since the atheist is denying the existence of any god, his point is different from that which I would make to the hypothetical Zeus-worshipper. In the latter case, I would not deny that the man is receiving divine responses to his prayers. He would certainly know his own experience better than would I. My discussion with him would be concerning the actual identity of the God who is answering his prayers.

The atheist is saying that there is no god answering prayers, and that prayer is simply a delusion of the worshipper. I would acknowledge to my pagan friend that he might, in fact, be receiving answers to prayer from a Deity who causes the sun to rise and the rain to fall on those, even, who do not know him (Paul said as much to the pagans in Lystra—Acts 14:16-17). The point of difference would be in the deciding upon which God is behind those observations.

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