10% or 23.3%?

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RICHinCHRIST
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10% or 23.3%?

Post by RICHinCHRIST » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:44 pm

I have been reading "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola and George Barna. It has been very informative, and I find I agree with most of what I've read. It also bears much similarity to Steve's topical series entitled "Some Assembly Required". In chapter 8, the authors bring up the issue of whether tithing is something for new covenant Christians. They hold the same view as Steve, that tithing has been abolished along with all the rest of the Old Testament ceremonial laws. I did find one of their comments very interesting.

The authors go thoroughly throughout all of the passages regarding Israel's financial obligations and calculate that the people were actually required to give 23.3% of their produce, not just 10%.

Here are the passages:


The First Yearly (Levitical) Tithe, Numbers 18: For Levitical Inheritance


This tithe was specifically for the Levitical priesthood.


The Second Yearly (Festival) Tithe: Deuteronomy 12:1-19 and 14:22-26



This is an additional 10%, to be given every year.


The Third Year (Poor) Tithe: Deuteronomy 14:28-29 and 26:12-13



This would come to 3.3% per year (one tenth of every three years' income)

Therefore, if one wants to teach that tithing is a biblical necessity, they must go the full distance and say that Christians today actually owe 23.3% of their money to their local church! In fact, if one wants to be truly completely biblical in this regard, they must give 20% to their local church, and 3.3% they will have to divide it among the full-time ministers (spiritualization of the Levite), the orphans and widows, and even the heathen foreigners in their geographical area! That's like saying they have to give money to illegal aliens, specifically those who are not even part of the new covenant community! Most Christians would be appalled at a preacher standing up on a Sunday morning and saying such things.

I guess I can poke fun even further and say that they should put 3.3% of their annual income out on their front lawn and invite the foster children, the senior citizen widows, and all the immigrants in their community to freely pick up the cash off their front lawn! That would be quite a delight for immigrant workers who do landscaping. Imagine that! Instead of them working laboriously (they are some of the hardest workers I've ever seen) they just go and pick up some cash off a Christian's lawn to go buy their family some dinner. Who knows, maybe this could be the future of Christian garage sales!

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Homer
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Re: 10% or 23.3%?

Post by Homer » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:00 am

Rich,

The various calculations of the total given under the law are interesting. Alexander Campbell calculated it to be over 30%. However, how do we compare with today? Sadly, our government has taken over much of what the church once did. In the early colonial settlements in Virginia, what we know as the Episcopal church used their money to build bridges. And this was certainly for the common good of the people and could be used by anyone.

The theocracy in under the law served as the government. We pay taxes for the (supposedly) common good where they did not. So how do you compare? The last year I worked before retirement our total for giving to our church, charities, and taxes was about 40%, and is today somewhere in the 25-30% range. And this does not count giving to family - that's kind of like giving to yourself ;)

I doubt there are many churches that use a large percentage of the offering for the poor, as seemed to be the case with the apostolic church. Too bad. I guess it is expected that the government takes care of that need.

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darinhouston
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Re: 10% or 23.3%?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:54 am

People tend to forget the embedded taxes in the things we buy and also things like sales tax, fuel taxes on top of sales tax, property taxes, fees such as car licenses, telecom taxes, water taxes, etc.

Fully burdened, many estimates show that most "taxpayers" (those who actually pay taxes) are burdened by more than 50% and that's before charitable giving. If one gives 20%, by this logic, then one is giving away almost the same amount they are using for themselves.

The government is doing a pretty bad job using that for the common welfare. And gone are the days of mutual aid societies and the like who used to pick up the safety net even for health care, etc. for the poor.

I am getting emails from Christian organizations asking for support to raise the debt ceiling and to do so without tax cuts and they are calling on the name of Christ in doing so. I find that a reproach since Jesus would never have condoned the confiscation on behalf of others. I heard a Catholic priest on the TV the other night begging folks not to buy into this argument -- the Democrats are asking to remove, for example, the charitable giving exemption, and his argument was that doing so would put more of that aid at the discretion of the government and not the individual and those best to help the poor would lose out on resources while the government who is so bad at it would get more. I actually think it could be a good thing for Christians to lose the charitable deduction because it stifles where they are likely to contribute -- many of those needing help the most and who would most directly benefit from giving would not be able to get it from tax-exempt organizations. How many Christians do you know who give significant amounts regularly directly to individuals who need it. I know my individual giving in the past has been dwarfed by my contributions to the church. I have made steps to try and flip that upside down lately, but the system promotes it heavily. It is my hope that my giving is completely detached from any benefit I might receive, or any influence by the government in that choice.

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Paidion
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Re: 10% or 23.3%?

Post by Paidion » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:02 pm

In any case, applying the Mosaic instructions to Christian practice today has no biblical backing. Does doing so arise out of a desire to follow scripture? Or is it simply a way for churches to ensure receiving sufficient funds to operate?

The apostle Paul gave instructions in giving under the new order:

Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem. I Corinthians 16:1-3

Notice first of all that the collection is for the saints, the needy saints presumably. It wasn't for the operation of church organizations. It wasn't for support of church leaders, though Paul did speak of helping leaders financially when he said to "honour" them. Paul himself was a full time missionary — but he didn't go around raising support for this ministry as current missionaries do. He continued his occupation as tent maker in order to support himself.

Yes, the practice of today's Christian churches is a far cry from that of the primitive Church — on nearly every level.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: 10% or 23.3%?

Post by Homer » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:12 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
Paul himself was a full time missionary — but he didn't go around raising support for this ministry as current missionaries do. He continued his occupation as tent maker in order to support himself.
How much of the time Paul worked to support himself is uncertain. At least some of the time the church supported him in his missionary efforts:

2 Corinthians 11:7-9
New King James Version (NKJV)

7. Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8. I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. 9. And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself.

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RICHinCHRIST
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Re: 10% or 23.3%?

Post by RICHinCHRIST » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:29 pm

Paidion wrote:In any case, applying the Mosaic instructions to Christian practice today has no biblical backing.

Agreed. I like what Frank Viola said in his book: "Tithing is biblical, but not Christian". It is biblical in the sense that it was required by the Old Covenant, but it is in no way a requirement of the New Covenant believer.

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mikew
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Re: 10% or 23.3%?

Post by mikew » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:41 pm

From what I see, Deut 14:23-27 basically describes a requirement to set aside a tenth of their increase in wine and grain and such.
These resources could be converted to money... which was especially useful if they had to travel far to the place designated by God (vs 25).

Then in the place designated, they were to have a festive meal (vs 26) to consume this tithe with the inclusion of the Levite priests (vs 27). So verse 26 speaks of using this money to buy what their souls desired for the meal.

It then seems that vv 28-29 is not describing a separate meal but focused on sharing the meal with the fatherless, the widow, the soujourner, and the levitial priests.

Rarely do the advocates of the tithe actually emphasize this aspect of the tithe.




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