Commissioned to heal

IsaacJ
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Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by IsaacJ » Tue May 11, 2010 6:46 pm

Wow, I posted this the other day but haven't really had time to get back to it until now. A very interesting conversation. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I don't wrestle much with the idea of God choosing to not want to heal in His sovereignty, but with knowing if my faith is ever allowed to expect more than His capability. The leper in Matthew 8 said 'If you are willing you can.' I can always get that far, but as mentioned in discussion, Jesus and the Apostles seemed to just command the healing which to me implies they knew they were always allowed to OR knew by the Spirit in that moment that it was the Lord's will in that case and acted on it.

When we wonder why we don't see as many miracles as nations in much harder circumstances it really makes sense to me that like Nazareth, we are so familiar with Jesus here in the West, but have no faith in Him. Of course, I doubt that means that ALL would be healed elsewhere, but certainly might limit God's willingness to do those things here.

I like the way many of the Chinese Christians describe that healing and wonders aren't something they pursue, they're something that follow the faithful. I guess if we're being obedient to God and proclaiming the gospel, He can add weight to the message with these when He sees fit...I'm just trying to figure out if I can ever be at a place of confidence in knowing if the Lord would have me act as the early disciples did.

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Homer
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Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by Homer » Tue May 11, 2010 9:16 pm

Interesting discussion. Certainly healing from physical illness is something we all need - especially right now as I am recovering from a nasty stomach flu and my wife just came down with it! However, healing from illness can't be more important than having food to eat. We read of Jesus feeding 5000 and then 4000 hungry people by perfoming miracles. And we read in John 6 that the folks came back the next day, hoping to get more free food, and yet He refused, pointing instead to the spiritual realities that his miracle of feeding them earthly bread attested to. It was a sign, and signs are not the point. As Jesus said in another place after healing a paralytic:

Matthew 9:5-6 (New King James Version)
5. For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6. But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”


The miracles Jesus performed here in the physical world demonstrated who Jesus is, His ability to accomplish things in the unseen, spiritual realm, and what He can do to meet all our spiritual needs.

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TK
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Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by TK » Wed May 12, 2010 4:16 pm

This is a tough one. My heart wants to side with steve7150 but at the same time my mind can't ignore the points raised by Steve G.

steve7150 brought up the Hebrews verse about Jesus being the exact representation of the Father. For the life of me, I can't imagine Jesus walking up to someone and striking them with a horrible injury or sickness "for their own good." For example, I can't imagine Jesus making a person lame, or blinding them, or killing them, or making them bent over, or withering their hand, sending a demon into them, etc. So, if I can't imagine Jesus doing that, then I have a difficult time believing that God does that. But I realize that it SEEMS like He does.

I read the following passage from Oswald Chambers recently:
A person’s character determines how he interprets God’s will (see Psalm 18:25-26 ). Abraham interpreted God’s command to mean that he had to kill his son, and he could only leave this traditional belief behind through the pain of a tremendous ordeal. God could purify his faith in no other way. If we obey what God says according to our sincere belief, God will break us from those traditional beliefs that misrepresent Him. There are many such beliefs which must be removed-for example, that God removes a child because his mother loves him too much. That is the devil’s lie and a travesty on the true nature of God! If the devil can hinder us from taking the supreme climb and getting rid of our wrong traditional beliefs about God, he will do so. But if we will stay true to God, God will take us through an ordeal that will serve to bring us into a better knowledge of Himself.
I guess I don't WANT to believe that God strikes a child with brain cancer to teach it's parents a lesson- but if He in fact DOES do that, then I need to learn to deal with it.

TK

IsaacJ
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Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by IsaacJ » Wed May 12, 2010 5:50 pm

In the past year, I've been reminded often of Romans 8:29...We're always quick to quote Romans 8:28 about how He works all things together for good for the people He loves. Verse 29 reminds me WHAT the good is He's after...that we be conformed to the image of His Son. I guess our Father knows when a miracle or suffering produces that end in us.

His will be done. May we be more and more attentive to His voice and ready to obey whatever He leads us to do.

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Homer
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Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by Homer » Wed May 12, 2010 6:51 pm

I think for me the answer is found in God's superintendence of all of life. He acts through providential means to bring about his will, and the percent of miracles out of the total number of events is infinitesimally small. How many times does an object thrown in the air fail to come down? Yet God can bring about His will through natural means as well as the miraculous.

I believe God is continuously aware of all that happens, "every sparrow that falls", and that, although He does not directly cause most of what we see as "bad stuff", He always has "veto" power over every event and can change the outcome to suit His will. Thus, although we live in a fallen world where the nature of things is that we all eventually suffer and die, and some much more and sooner and worse than others, God is ultimately responsible in each individual case because He could have easily changed the outcome had He chosen to. That said, we have no right to complain when he doesn't.

Years ago my boss had an 18 year old son who was killed in a mountain climbing accident on Mt. Washington here in Oregon. When my boss returned to work I offered my condolences and with tears in his eyes he gave thanks for having his son for 18 years. He is to be imitated in this, I think.

steve7150
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Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by steve7150 » Mon May 17, 2010 6:16 pm

When we wonder why we don't see as many miracles as nations in much harder circumstances it really makes sense to me that like Nazareth, we are so familiar with Jesus here in the West, but have no faith in Him. Of course, I doubt that means that ALL would be healed elsewhere, but certainly might limit God's willingness to do those things here.






Often people in undeveloped places know about the healings that Jesus did and just believe he still can and wants to. They have not yet been told that God heals a few here and there but wants the great majority to suffer. If they were told that , then no doubt the healings would be equally as rare as in the west.
I personally don't think it's a matter of God's willingness or not , i think there are natural laws God created and there are also spiritual laws.
For example the women with the blood issue fought her way through the crowd (Mark 5.23) and risked stoning for breaking several of the laws of Moses , yet she knew if she could touch his garment she would be healed. Jesus did'nt even know who touched him , did'nt even know she was looking to be healed yet he felt the power of the Holy Spirit flow out of him to heal her while he did'nt yet even know who she was. I think it was the Holy Spirit, her faith and her lack of any doubt and her action that initiated her healing because of a spiritual law that existed then by the grace of God and a law that still exists today.

SteveF

Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by SteveF » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:05 pm

a spiritual law that existed then by the grace of God and a law that still exists today.
Hi Steve7150, I was involved in the Word of Faith movement a long time ago and they taught often about "spiritual laws". Could you expound on what you mean by spiritual law? What is your scriptual support?

Thanks
Steve

steve7150
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Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:42 pm

Hi Steve7150, I was involved in the Word of Faith movement a long time ago and they taught often about "spiritual laws". Could you expound on what you mean by spiritual law? What is your scriptual support?





Hi Steve,
So was i, as the person that lead me to the Lord adored Kenneth Hagin, but being inquisitive i wanted to hear what critics of WOF had to say. I listened to the BAM show (Hank Hannegraff) for over two years and heard him bash WOF teachers on just about every show. I have listened to Steve Gs teachings on WOF twice and others with an open mind.
My belief that God established spiritual laws just the same as natural laws is a deduction of mine based on Jesus statements, some of Paul's writings and also the condition of Adam before the fall. For example Paul said we are blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ , therefore we are already blessed but we look to God to bless us. We have God's grace, we have His blessings, we have salvation including forgiveness and redemption and restoration. IMO if you have forgiveness and these other blessings you s/b in Adam's position before the fall. As far as i can tell he had health and provision and God given dominion. Therefore i look at all the instances Jesus healed people through the power of the Holy Spirit and take note about his statements. He referenced belief, faith, not to doubt, there was usually a corresponding action from the person looking for Jesus help and Jesus said not to fear.
This may seem like a laundry list but IMO it's not that Jesus is making things difficult for people he is just revealing spiritual laws that exist and what it takes to access them. This is just my assessment and i don't see any reason these things stopped after his ministry.

SteveF

Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by SteveF » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:18 am

Hi Steve, I too was introduced to the WOF movement through someone I respected when I was 19 and less than 2 years old as a Christian. I also found Kenneth Hagin to be the most appealing teacher. I even tried to turn others onto him. In fact, at the recommendation of the individual who introduced me to the WOF I flew down to Tulsa, Oklahoma and attended Kenneth Hagin’s Campmeeting….twice!!. The first time I went with the person who introduced me to him and the second time I went with a married couple and a friend.

By the time I went to the second Campmeeting I already had some questions about the WOF teaching. In fact, the friend who went to Tulsa with me was quite concerned about the teaching. We spent some time at a secular bookstore in Tulsa looking at a book by David Hunt called “The Seduction of Christianity”. My friend had found the concerns that were raised in the book about the WOF teaching insightful. He was more convinced of the error than I was but my mind was slowly changing.

I can’t point to one particular thing that brought me out of the teaching. It was a combination of reading 2 or 3 books on the subject, my friend, David Hunt’s teaching, prayer, and my own personal study of scripture. I also had one entirely subjective experience. While I was thinking about all of the visions Kenneth Hagin and others claimed to have, I felt the Lord impressed on my heart this verse from Jeremiah 23:16 “…..they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. “

As far as the BAM show, I’m not particularly comfortable with that style and actually didn’t hear his show until after I was out of the movement (to be fair, I haven’t heard his show for years). I found it to be over the top. There are two issues I had with the way he presented his case.

1. It came across as nitpicky and often seemed to be personal attacks. Even though I agreed with him that the WOF is wrong, I often didn’t recognize the WOF teachers he described. Although many of the points he raised had merit, he didn’t seem to have an intimate understanding of the teaching. I can only assume that many people in the WOF movement would hear certain things that he says and think “that’s not a fair representation of Kenneth Hagin” (or fill in your favourite teacher) and disregard everything Hank has to say. When I listened to Steve Gregg’s presentation, I found he presented the views of the WOF teaching accurately and in a fair manner. Steve was also measured and respectful in his response.

2. Ironically, by not having an intimate understanding of the teaching, the BAM actually misses some of the more subtle dangers of the teaching IMO.


One of the subtle dangers I see in the WOF teachers is the subject of “Spiritual Laws”. It’s quite possible this may be the most damaging aspect. Reason? It robs you of a personal relationship with a personal God. Rather than the focus being on God as your Heavenly Father who knows and cares for your needs, your focus is on applying certain techniques. Hence, you need to say the right thing, think the right thing etc.. I’ve seen people that accidentally said something “negative” and were afraid something terrible was now going to happen to them. They had lost all concept of their Heavenly Father who cared for them and their needs…..a Father who wasn’t waiting to pounce on them as soon as the wrong word popped out of their mouth.

Ironically, I’ve actually found that God seems to do more amazing things in my life when I’m entirely honest with Him and confess my lack of faith, my fears and weaknesses. I remember Dave Hunt saying something similar. He gave an account of when he was smuggling some bibles behind the Iron Curtain. He made a “negative confession” to God when he was waiting at the border check and prayed the following, “God I’m scared, I must be the worst bible smuggler there is” and so on. Guess what? He miraculously got through.

I remember when WOF teachers would speak about spiritual laws and they often seem to be unaware of the way we use the term “law” nowadays as opposed to two thousand years ago. When we use the term “traffic law” in a sense of something that is required or moral, that would be consistent with the bible usage of the term law. BUT, when we say the Law of Gravity or the Law of Supply and Demand, that is not the way the bible uses the term. These seem to be more recent usages of the term “law” and refer to something being a fact and not something that's required or moral. Here’s an example. Some WOF teachers will quote the following verse

Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

They will point to the phrase “law of faith” and not only pull it completely out of it’s context and miss the subject matter (I don’t know how they miss it) but use the modern scientific understanding of the word “law”. They will say this proves there is a certain law of faith that must be understood and followed just like the law of gravity. Huh?

I actually heard a local WOF teacher once say when the bible says we walk in the spirit and against such, “there is no law”, that would even include the law of gravity. Hence, we will overcome the law of gravity (the rapture maybe??). Again, completely missing the distinction of the modern usage of the term and completely missing the fact that Paul would have had no concept of the word “law” being used by modern scientists in a different manner and context.

Does God require us to act in faith? Absolutely! But it’s faith in an actual God rather than making sure we follow the correct techniques. I believe God is bigger than my techniques! I can make a million so-called “wrong confessions” and God can still override them all!!

I'm sure some of what I wrote sounds familiar to you. :) I spent almost 2 years engrossed in the teaching in the mid 80's so I know it quite well...including all of Kenneth Hagin's stories.

Steve

steve7150
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Re: Commissioned to heal

Post by steve7150 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:12 pm

I remember when WOF teachers would speak about spiritual laws and they often seem to be unaware of the way we use the term “law” nowadays as opposed to two thousand years ago. When we use the term “traffic law” in a sense of something that is required or moral, that would be consistent with the bible usage of the term law. BUT, when we say the Law of Gravity or the Law of Supply and Demand, that is not the way the bible uses the term. These seem to be more recent usages of the term “law” and refer to something being a fact and not something that's required or moral. Here’s an example. Some WOF teachers will quote the following verse






Hi Steve,
Thanks for your response. I really don't disagree much with what you said. When i speak of spiritual laws or perhaps principals or truths i'm not referring to an absolute collection of rules but simply to the words of Jesus. As you know he said to speak to the mountain, have faith in God,forgive others, doubt not, fear not and cast that mountain into the sea. I'm not concerned about whether healing is in the atonement or not , i just choose to believe my "confession" or prayer will be answered at some point and so far it has.
I understand your point that you may take your focus off God and put it onto the "spiritual law" as a means to an end and that's a valid observation yet the words are from Jesus and he did say "if my words abide in you and you abide in me" , therefore he acknowledges both are possible at the same time.
I agree God is sovereign and he clearly can and does respond to prayer regardless of method, yet for myself i just see no reason not to pray or confess in the manner he perscribed.
So to me it's not a matter of labeling it "WOF" or whether this or that teacher is a fraud or not , it's just taking Jesus words at face value and making a choice not to doubt despite the fact that 98% of believers only really believe him for "spiritual things."

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