160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

dwilkins
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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by dwilkins » Fri May 10, 2013 8:45 pm

steve7150 wrote: I suggest, then, that the bad guys outside of the New Jerusalem in Revelation represent people throughout the world who are invited into the city during that age. There is no reason to believe that those people are dead and in need of restoration from Hades or the Lake of Fire.



I appreciate your point of view Doug and you could be right. My point of view is to take Rev sequentially so since the bad guys in the LOF are there after the raising of the dead and the judgment , i see them as resurrected unbelievers.
Another reason i see them as the raised dead is because Paul expanded an OT statement to include the dead praising Christ in Phil 2 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth." Under the earth meaning the dead.
I'm not sure that my approach would require a non-sequential view of Revelation. The more important part is what the eternal state looks like. It seems to me that Isaiah is clear that the eternal state is a world in which people are recruited in the priesthood and that the leaders end up bringing honor to God. My point is that continuing human history on earth including good guys and bad guys is clearly in view in Isaiah in the New Heavens and New Earth and I think this can be matched with Revelation's view as well.

Doug

steve7150
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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by steve7150 » Sat May 11, 2013 8:48 am

It seems to me that Isaiah is clear that the eternal state is a world in which people are recruited in the priesthood and that the leaders end up bringing honor to God. My point is that continuing human history on earth including good guys and bad guys is clearly in view in Isaiah in the New Heavens and New Earth and I think this can be matched with Revelation's view as well.







I also see different levels of responsibility in the next age as i see in Rev 7 the 144K as the leaders and the great multitude as the believers from this age who preach and teach the gospel to the unsaved in the LOF.
Just as Paul took an OT passage and added "under the earth" (Phil 2.10) as bending the knee to Christ , which really substantially adds to the weight and the impact of the image , it may be the case that Isaiah's vision does not include any postmortem salvation. Or it could be the case that there are still going to be corpses even after a postmortem opportunity. However even Isaiah says "the nations" will worship God and IMO that phrase includes the majority of folks from each nation not a remnant.

dwilkins
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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by dwilkins » Sat May 11, 2013 11:11 pm

steve7150 wrote:

I also see different levels of responsibility in the next age as i see in Rev 7 the 144K as the leaders and the great multitude as the believers from this age who preach and teach the gospel to the unsaved in the LOF.
Just as Paul took an OT passage and added "under the earth" (Phil 2.10) as bending the knee to Christ , which really substantially adds to the weight and the impact of the image , it may be the case that Isaiah's vision does not include any postmortem salvation. Or it could be the case that there are still going to be corpses even after a postmortem opportunity. However even Isaiah says "the nations" will worship God and IMO that phrase includes the majority of folks from each nation not a remnant.
I think you should look closer at what Isaiah is predicting as a design for the age to come (New Heaven and New Earth). That will be the time when the faithful remnant who survives the vengeance of God against his enemies takes the message of God to the ends of the earth where people have never heard of God. This flatly argues for not only unsaved people living on earth in the New Heavens and New Earth, but also the occurance of salvation. I don't see any indication in Isaiah 65-66 (from which Rev. 21-22 is drawn) that people who've died are being evangelized. Instead, the ones who were killed in the wrath of God are to serve as a permenant memorial of God's displeasure with them.

Doug

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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by steve7150 » Sun May 12, 2013 11:30 am

This flatly argues for not only unsaved people living on earth in the New Heavens and New Earth, but also the occurance of salvation. I don't see any indication in Isaiah 65-66 (from which Rev. 21-22 is drawn) that people who've died are being evangelized. Instead, the ones who were killed in the wrath of God are to serve as a permenant memorial of God's displeasure with them.









I don't look at Isa 65-66 as a final revelation that s/b used to interpret Revelation. To me Rev 21-22 expands and unveils more about the afterlife then any writers in the OT ever had. Yes Rev 21-22 draws info from Isa 65-66 but then it gives a "Revelation" about more which is that God can and will give opportunities for postmortem salvation.
Paul also took verses from Isaiah and expanded the exaltation of Christ to include not only those in heaven and on earth but "under the earth" which means the dead, yet the Isaiah 45 source mentions nothing about the fact the dead could exalt Christ. As Steve G has mentioned the OT warnings are usually about temporal judgments and it's even possible Isa 65-66 may be about the destruction of Jerusalem since Jesus referenced it in that context and that the New Heavens and Earth could mean the New Covenant, but either way i don't take it as a final word on eschatology.
So perhaps we can agree to disagree and move on?

dwilkins
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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by dwilkins » Sun May 12, 2013 6:29 pm

steve7150 wrote:
I don't look at Isa 65-66 as a final revelation that s/b used to interpret Revelation. To me Rev 21-22 expands and unveils more about the afterlife then any writers in the OT ever had. Yes Rev 21-22 draws info from Isa 65-66 but then it gives a "Revelation" about more which is that God can and will give opportunities for postmortem salvation.
Paul also took verses from Isaiah and expanded the exaltation of Christ to include not only those in heaven and on earth but "under the earth" which means the dead, yet the Isaiah 45 source mentions nothing about the fact the dead could exalt Christ. As Steve G has mentioned the OT warnings are usually about temporal judgments and it's even possible Isa 65-66 may be about the destruction of Jerusalem since Jesus referenced it in that context and that the New Heavens and Earth could mean the New Covenant, but either way i don't take it as a final word on eschatology.
So perhaps we can agree to disagree and move on?
If you are losing interest in this point then I can move on. My basic point was that there is nothing in scripture that explicitly says that the New Heaven and New Earth will be a place where there are no bad people running around and where there is no longer any salvation of men living in normal human history. This has been assumed in some theological models, but there is no scriptural basis for it.

As far as those under the earth submitting to God, I thought your point earlier about taking Revelation as sequential was interesting for this topic. According to Revelation 5, after the ascension but before the first seal is broken every creature above, on, and below the earth submits to God.

Rev. 5 (NASB)
"11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped."

Have you ever looked at that passage, and what is your take on it?

Doug

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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by steve7150 » Mon May 13, 2013 5:49 pm

My basic point was that there is nothing in scripture that explicitly says that the New Heaven and New Earth will be a place where there are no bad people running around and where there is no longer any salvation of men living in normal human history. This has been assumed in some theological models, but there is no scriptural basis for it.









Is this the Preterist view that the earth continues forever and good and evil continue and that there is no second coming?

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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by steve7150 » Mon May 13, 2013 6:05 pm

Rev. 5 (NASB)
"11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped."

Have you ever looked at that passage, and what is your take on it?






I have not studied this but it seems to be the exaltation of Christ after he proved himself worthy. The living creatures and the elders may be symbolic.
It sounds like the end of Matthew where Jesus says "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

dwilkins
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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by dwilkins » Mon May 13, 2013 7:42 pm

steve7150 wrote:Rev. 5 (NASB)
"11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped."

Have you ever looked at that passage, and what is your take on it?






I have not studied this but it seems to be the exaltation of Christ after he proved himself worthy. The living creatures and the elders may be symbolic.
It sounds like the end of Matthew where Jesus says "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Do you think this is a different event from Paul's situation of bowing that you mentioned earlier?

Doug

dwilkins
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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by dwilkins » Mon May 13, 2013 8:02 pm

steve7150 wrote:
Is this the Preterist view that the earth continues forever and good and evil continue and that there is no second coming?
There's more than one flavor of preterism and I can't speak for views other than my own. In my opinion, there is no way that the earth can continue literally forever (mathematical infinity). You are right that some take this view because they take passages from the Psalms literally, but I don't. It seems to me that whether it's the big freeze of the big crunch the universe as we know it will end at some point. And, I'm sure that at some point in the future human history on earth (and in the rest of the universe) will end as well. I wouldn't expect this for some millions of years, barring something unexpected like a massive astronomical event before humans spread off of the earth. Scripture doesn't talk about these events so I am not dogmatic about them. Scripture also doesn't envision a scenario where humans living on earth (or some other planet) stop being bad, so until the universe as we know it is done millions of years from now there will continue to be obedience and disobedience by humans. The Bible does talk about the end of Satan, so I can see an end to supernatural invisible evil characters when their leader is destroyed (if you don't think that Satan is a character, but simply an expression of human evil, then he ends when the history of humans outside of heaven ends). Satan's end is associated with Revelation's Gog/Magog war, which I see as future to us at this point.

From what I've been able to find in reading philosophy and history on the topic, the idea that evil has to end completely before the introduction of the New Heaven and New Earth comes from Stoic philosophical influence in the ancient world. When Gnosticism was invented in about 115AD it adopted a mostly Jewish worldview, but incorporated the Stoic requirement of the dissolution of the physical universe as a way to explain why the Demiurge (YHWH) screwed up the initial creation. Obviously, Christianity is not based on this supposition, but for some reason Augustine (a somewhat reformed Gnostic) pulled some of this into our typical worldview.

Regarding the Second Coming goes, as far as I can tell Tertullian invented the term in about 200AD, and I don't think his definition of it is the scriptural one. You won't find the term Second Coming of Christ in scripture, so it's somewhat hard to talk to people about it without mixing up images and vocabulary. In my opinion, the parousia began in 70AD when Christ's kingdom began in full force after the destruction of the old Temple. It continues to this day and will never end.

Doug

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Re: 160,000 people die every day. What is their eternal destiny

Post by Paidion » Mon May 13, 2013 10:20 pm

It is true that the phrase "second coming" does not occur in the New Testament. However many understand the following to refer to the second coming of Christ:

And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. (John 14:3)

Christ came to earth once. It is thought that He is saying in this sentence, that He will come again to the earth the second time to take His own to heaven.

Then there are passages such as the following in Matthew 24:

So, if they say to you, ‘lo, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; if they say, ‘lo, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lighting comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the son of man. Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:26-31)

This certainly sounds like a description of a second coming of Christ to mankind on earth. When the lighting of the sun shines from the east in the morning to the west in the evening, EVERYONE IS AWARE OF IT. Jesus says so it wil be when He comes. I know some preterists, particularly full preterists try to relegate these events to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. But how do they do it? Why wasn't anyone aware of HIs coming? Why wasn't it written as an amazing, unprecedented event in all histories of the period?

Also the entirety of Matthew 25 seems to describe the second coming.
Paidion

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