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When was the Trinity revealed?

When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby 21centpilgrim » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:26 am

At what point did the Trinity come to be known?
It appears not to be until 325AD?
If such a vital doctrine was made known and proclaimed earlier, why then no objection by Jewish converts? There certainly was over gentile believers not having to follow Moses.
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby mattrose » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:51 am

Well Paul was pretty upset about the reverence being shown to Jesus
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby Singalphile » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:56 pm

Some of Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho is interesting. Trypho was a non-Christian Jewish man in the mid-2nd century. There are sections that touch on the divinity of Jesus, around chapter LV (55), at least. Trypho did object to it, although I'm not sure exactly why. I've not read most of it. (I don't know if there's any discussion of the Holy Spirit.)

It seems to me that the divinity and unity of the Father (1) and Holy Spirit (2) was probably always recognized, and Jesus (3) was revealed as the Son of God, who was God, very early after the resurrection. So in that sense, the 3 ("the trinity") were revealed very early. The NT itself mentions those three together a number of times. Trinitarianism, on the other hand, wasn't formalized until hundreds of years later, as I understand it, like you said.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby Paidion » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:43 pm

Singalphile wrote:Some of Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho is interesting. Trypho was a non-Christian Jewish man in the mid-2nd century. There are sections that touch on the divinity of Jesus, around chapter LV (55), at least. Trypho did object to it, although I'm not sure exactly why. I've not read most of it. (I don't know if there's any discussion of the Holy Spirit.)


Okay, I said I wasn't coming back to post. However, in coming back to see what people were writing, I noticed this post of Singalphile's. So I will revise what I said. Though I will never discuss or argue anything since I quit the forum, I will occasionally post in order to provide information.

Singalphile, I have read the Dialogue with Trypho several times, and one part of the discussion deals with the Holy Spirit. Both Justin and Trypho spoke of the Holy Spirit. Certainly Trypho, a Jew, when using the term “Holy Spirit” did not have in mind another divine Person. For He believed in a single divine Person only, namely “Yahweh”. At no time did Justin suggest that the Holy Spirit was a third divine Individual. Indeed, at one point, he asked Trypho an amazing question:

“Do you think that any other one is said to be worthy of worship and called Lord and God in the scriptures, except the Maker of all, and Messiah, who by so many scriptures was proved to you to have become man?”


And Trypho replied:
“How can we admit this, when we have instituted so great an inquiry as to whether there is any other than the Father alone?”—Dialogue With Trypho Ch LXVII


If Justin had been a Trinitarian, this would have been the perfect occasion for Justin to have introduced the Holy Spirit as a third divine Individual. But he didn’t. He just said the following:

“I must ask you this also, that I may know whether or not you are of a different opinion from that which you admitted some time ago.”


Justin sometimes referred to the Holy Spirit as “speaking from the Person of the Father” and at other times as “speaking from the Person of the Son.” This led me to think that perhaps the Holy Spirit is the very Persons of the Father and the Son, extending throughout the world, and speaking to and through God's people.
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby 21centpilgrim » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:15 pm

mattrose wrote:Well Paul was pretty upset about the reverence being shown to Jesus


Yes, they were proclaiming Jesus to be the Christ/Messiah, no other record otherwise. It would be sufficient enough for persecution. Indeed look at Stephen's message that Paul was present at and was in agreement with the crowd that stoned Stephen to death.

Stephen pronounced Christ to be the promised prophet like Moses, the promised Righteous One, the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. Now there is reverence shown to the Messiah, that does not equal reverence shown as 'God the Son'.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby JamesFrench » Wed May 16, 2018 2:18 am

1. At the Council of Nicaea in 325AD Jesus was declared to be the "second God." Constantine convened this council as Emperor of Rome and with the power and point of his sword. He was a sun worshipper and was only interested in stability of the Empire, not in the truth of scriptures etc.
2. At the First Council of Constantinople in 381AD the holy spirit (lower case h and s used to distinguish the gift of God from the Giver; God The Father wherein capital H and S should be used. (See E.W. Bullinger; The Giver And The Gift or Companion Bible) was declared to be the third part of the Trinity.
3. Historically the Jews, the first-century church, Paul, and Jesus etc. never taught or believed in a Trinity. It would have been inconceivable. The Shema prayers were and are recited every day by Jews then and now. Deuteronomy 6:4.  
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
4. " 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?  29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:  30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.  31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:  33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.  34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question."
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby JamesFrench » Wed May 16, 2018 2:23 am

Good points brought up 21centpilgrim
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby Paidion » Wed May 16, 2018 11:24 am

Here is the original Nicene Creed of 325 A.D—before later changes and additions were made. Notice that there is no suggestion of God being a Trinity:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, only begotten, that is, of the substance of the Father;
God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not created, being of one substance with the Father,
Through whom all things were made; both things in heaven and things on earth;
Who for us people, and for our salvation, came down, and was incarnate, and was made man;
He suffered, and was raised again the third day,
And ascended into heaven
And he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead,
And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
And in one baptism of repentance for deliverance from sins,
And in one holy universal Church,
And in the resurrection of the flesh,
And in everlasting life.
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby Si » Thu May 17, 2018 9:37 am

21centpilgrim wrote:
mattrose wrote:Well Paul was pretty upset about the reverence being shown to Jesus


Yes, they were proclaiming Jesus to be the Christ/Messiah, no other record otherwise. It would be sufficient enough for persecution. Indeed look at Stephen's message that Paul was present at and was in agreement with the crowd that stoned Stephen to death.

Stephen pronounced Christ to be the promised prophet like Moses, the promised Righteous One, the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. Now there is reverence shown to the Messiah, that does not equal reverence shown as 'God the Son'.


How do you explain how the New Testament applies Old Testament passages about Yahweh to Jesus? For example:

Isaiah 6:1 NKJV: In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

John12:41 NKJV: ...These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him."

Isaiah's vision of Yahweh is applied to Jesus.

Hebrews 1:10-12 is language about Yahweh from the Psalms and Isaiah applied directly to the Son.

Hebrews 1:10 NKJV And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;

12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”


---------------

If language applied to Yahweh is applied to Jesus, then how is Jesus not in some way God?
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Postby Paidion » Thu May 17, 2018 10:27 pm

Also, Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) in his Dialogue with Trypho, quoted Genesis 24, indicating that the Father and the Son share the name "Yahweh."
Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven.

He said that the Yahweh on earth who talked with Abraham was the Son of God, and that through Him, the Yahweh in heaven (The Father) caused the sulfur and fire to be rained on Sodom and Gomorrah.
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