John 1:1-18

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: John 1:1-18

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:16 pm

jriccitelli wrote:Hi Darin, I saw one of my favorite passages and favorite words ‘logos’, so I cant stop myself from commenting (that is a common trait around here).
I have forever appreciated the word ‘logos’ because I loved reading the philosophers and the Bible, see God anticipating the Greek philosophy and thus answering the question of the great ‘first mover’ or the ‘eternal principle of order’ of philosophy by providing the answer in a ‘person’.
More amazing is the linking of the Greek (gentile) ultimate question of beginnings with the Hebrew God of beginnings, namely the The word of the Hebrews “a meaningful link for both”. God knew this, I think John (the disciple) knew this, as Paul also discreetly addresses philosophy in his letters.
***
I guess I'm still confused by the grammar, particularly as to the referrants involving the light.

I do see a clear allusion to Genesis 1, but the light spoken of would be consistent with the Spirit of God and not necessarily the man, Jesus. Is it possible that the confusing and somewhat obscure (to me) literary devices John is using is somehow consistent with a position that Jesus was born as we all are, though not conceived in the same way, that He was in His flesh human and "man" in every sense we might understand but that He didn't have only a residual spark of the Spirit within Him as we do or urging us (as the OT Saints may have had), but had the fullness of His entire Spiritual being filled with the Spirit of God that was eternally God, the Father (who we know is spirit). In that sense, could it be said that it was His spirit that was the light and expressed God spiritually in the world through the intermediation through the man Jesus and that in this sense He was Divine in that His spirit was fully Divine though His flesh was not? It could be said that a man is known by his spiritual self so that He was the light of the world in that He illuminated the world by revealing the Spirit of His Father? I don't see this as in any way reducing Jesus but might explain the pre-incarnate references and the hypostatic union.


It might also explain how he could be said to be the first fruits of what we may someday become, though having that privilege is given Lordship after His obedience? That until He did it fully, we couldn't experience it partially in this life or fully in the next?

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: John 1:1-18

Post by darinhouston » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:58 pm

Paidion (or others) I'm continuing in my studies of John (and the Trinity). I'm resolving a number of my issues, but others still nag me.

How is it that πρὸς τὸν θεόν (pros ton theon) from John 1:1 (and 2) is rendered "[the Word was] with God" but πρὸς τὸν ἄγγελον (pros ton angelon) from Luke 1:18 is rendered "[Mary said] to the Angel..." ?

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: John 1:1-18

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:08 pm

Darin wrote:How is it that πρὸς τὸν θεόν (pros ton theon) from John 1:1 is rendered "[the Word was] with God" but πρὸς τὸν ἄγγελον (pros ton angelon) from Luke 1:18 is rendered "[Mary said] to the Angel..." ?
The primary meaning of "προς" is "toward". In John 1:1, the Word was toward God. The word does not mean "with" in the sense of physical proximity. But it does mean "with" in the sense, "I'm with you in that, man!" The Logos was with the Father in all of His intentions, loves, works, etc. All of His inclinations and acts were toward the Father, and did not arise independently.

In Luke 1:18, Mary spoke toward the angel. That is, she directed her words toward him.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dwilkins
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: John 1:1-18

Post by dwilkins » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:21 pm

I wouldn't argue that the suggestions so far are out of line, but the basis for the vocabulary involved is Stoic philosophy (logos, pneumas, etc.). Stoicism was the dominant worldview of the time of the New Testament, and a great deal of New Testament thought was constructed from their vocabulary (though it was formulated differently because it postulated Yahweh as God, etc.). I'd suggest the following books, which I think everyone here would find very interesting:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_ ... ophy&ajr=2

http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Stoics-Troel ... s+and+paul

http://www.amazon.com/Stoicism-Early-Ch ... pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Cosmology-Self-Ap ... pd_sim_b_4

Doug

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: John 1:1-18

Post by TheEditor » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:57 am

Have you considered Barclay's treatment of John chapter one? A friend gave it to me years ago. It was pretty exhaustive if I recall, especially on the "Logos". I may still have a copy if you are interested.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

John 1:1-18

Post by darinhouston » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:55 am

TheEditor wrote:Have you considered Barclay's treatment of John chapter one? A friend gave it to me years ago. It was pretty exhaustive if I recall, especially on the "Logos". I may still have a copy if you are interested.

Regards, Brenden.
I would be interested. Let me see if I can find it locally or online. Do you have a full title or isbn number?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

John 1:1-18

Post by darinhouston » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:37 pm

dwilkins wrote:I wouldn't argue that the suggestions so far are out of line, but the basis for the vocabulary involved is Stoic philosophy (logos, pneumas, etc.). Stoicism was the dominant worldview of the time of the New Testament, and a great deal of New Testament thought was constructed from their vocabulary (though it was formulated differently because it postulated Yahweh as God, etc.). I'd suggest the following books, which I think everyone here would find very interesting:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_ ... ophy&ajr=2

http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Stoics-Troel ... s+and+paul

http://www.amazon.com/Stoicism-Early-Ch ... pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Cosmology-Self-Ap ... pd_sim_b_4

Doug
If it's the same book that is on ccel, then it doesn't seem to be a very robust treatment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Pierac
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:43 pm

Re: John 1:1-18

Post by Pierac » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:28 pm

Here is an article from one of your very own Trinitarians.

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=255

His views may address some issues many or if any issues you may have? The point being he totally supports the Trinity... but exposes the abuse Trinitarians use with the logos!

It's just data... Take it for what it is! Someone who supports your view, but has a need for the truth!

Paul

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: John 1:1-18

Post by Paidion » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:15 pm

As I understand it, Jesus was TOTALLY human while on earth. He was not a "God-man" hybrid. In being born as a human being, He had divested Himself of ALL of His divine attributes (Philippians 2:6-8). The only thing He retained of His former existence was His identity as the Son of God.

While on earth, He could do no miracles on His own, but the Father did the miracles through Him. He Himself said, "...the Father who dwells in me does his works."(John 14:10)

Here's a little song I wrote, based on the Philippians passage. Sing it to the tune of "Jesus Lover of my Soul":

Philippians 2:5-12
Let in you be the same mind
Which in Jesus Christ we find,
Who though fullest deity
Did not seek equality
But he emptied Himself to save
Having taken the form of a slave
Born like to sinful men,
He obeyed to death's last pain.

After this great deed of love,
God exalted Him above.
Highest name is Jesus now
At which every knee shall bow.
And shall every tongue confess:
Jesus Christ is Lord—no less!
So beloved now obey
Even as you have alway.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Pierac
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:43 pm

Re: John 1:1-18

Post by Pierac » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:49 am

Paidion wrote:As I understand it, Jesus was TOTALLY human while on earth. He was not a "God-man" hybrid. In being born as a human being, He had divested Himself of ALL of His divine attributes (Philippians 2:6-8). The only thing He retained of His former existence was His identity as the Son of God.

While on earth, He could do no miracles on His own, but the Father did the miracles through Him. He Himself said, "...the Father who dwells in me does his works."(John 14:10)

Here's a little song I wrote, based on the Philippians passage. Sing it to the tune of "Jesus Lover of my Soul":

Philippians 2:5-12
Let in you be the same mind
Which in Jesus Christ we find,
Who though fullest deity
Did not seek equality
But he emptied Himself to save
Having taken the form of a slave
Born like to sinful men,
He obeyed to death's last pain.

After this great deed of love,
God exalted Him above.
Highest name is Jesus now
At which every knee shall bow.
And shall every tongue confess:
Jesus Christ is Lord—no less!
So beloved now obey
Even as you have alway.
Now to that phrase in Philippians 2 that causes you a difficulty. It is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7). It is unfortunate that the Old King James version of the Bible translated this verse completely wrong. It reads that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" and gives the impression that as the preexistent God, Jesus did not think there was anything wrong in being considered equal with God.

It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant. The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest. Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at. Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God. But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage. He said, "I came to serve" (Matt. 20:28), not to snatch! At his arrest in the garden, he said, "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). As the Messiah, God's appointed King, he had every right to call for divine protection. He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.

Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state. The importance is really very simple and very practical: how are Christians to conduct themselves in this world? Not by imitating the man Adam who forfeited everything by a grab for power and glory, but by imitating Jesus the Messiah (v.5) who through humility and obedience to God gained it all and more. After all, if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." If he was already God, he had this before his birth! No. It is clear that God has given him a new position, a new name (authority), and a new rank that he did not previously possess.

The Greek is very clear here: dio kai means (as in Luke 1:35) "for this reason precisely." Why has God exalted Jesus to His right hand? "Therefore, God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every other name because he is back where he was before as God"? Not at all! He is given the status as a reward for the precise reason that he humbled himself and died. His exalted status is a reward. If we follow the last Adam's pattern, we too will be exalted by God when Christ returns. It is evident, then, that "this hymn does not contained what numerous interpreters seek and find in it: an independent statement about preexistence or even a Christology preexistence… No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.

This is the creed of ALL Orthodox Christian Beliefs! All of them!

DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


So pay close attention.... The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.


You failed to understand your own creeds when you made your post above...
Peace,
Paul

Post Reply

Return to “The Trinity”