The Word as a person of the trinity

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darinhouston
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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:52 pm

steve7150 wrote:To me the inference is that he is saying He is Lord of everything and our judge. As to when it was given to him, i'm just guessing but i think it may connect with Phil 2.7 when he agreed to humble himself to become like us and in effect become our Savior by dying for our sins. It may have also been when he died on the cross and was resurrected. Maybe connected to his statement on the cross "it is finished."
OK, but either way -- do you agree that there was a point in time at which he did not have that authority?

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darinhouston
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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:55 pm

jriccitelli wrote:
The question was is Jesus God, if Jesus is in a different new category is he then not God and not man?
Just wanted to clarify, I didn’t mean there is no other species, as in angels and animals, I meant there is no-thing in the Universe that does not fit in the two category’s; created things – and non created things (God).
Why not something that fits into both categories in different contexts/senses? I believe you may present a false dichotomy as it applies to Jesus. That is what I've been trying to say all along, albeit poorly it seems.

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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by steve7150 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:49 am

OK, but either way -- do you agree that there was a point in time at which he did not have that authority?





Clearly as he was given the authority by his Father so before that moment he didn't have it. Whatever one thinks of Jesus he is subordinate to his Father.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:58 pm

steve7150 wrote:OK, but either way -- do you agree that there was a point in time at which he did not have that authority?





Clearly as he was given the authority by his Father so before that moment he didn't have it. Whatever one thinks of Jesus he is subordinate to his Father.
OK, but this is not a question of subordination, but of nature. If He had the nature of God and all the attributes of the Godhead prior to the incarnation, then He would have had that authority and would not have had to RECEIVE the authority. Consider this -- even after He has been given that authority, isn't He still subordinate to the Father?

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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by steve7150 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:07 pm

If He had the nature of God and all the attributes of the Godhead prior to the incarnation, then He would have had that authority and would not have had to RECEIVE the authority.










Do you think Jesus could have the nature of God but not all the attributes of the Father? If so would you call him divine or deity?

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darinhouston
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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm

steve7150 wrote: If He had the nature of God and all the attributes of the Godhead prior to the incarnation, then He would have had that authority and would not have had to RECEIVE the authority.



Do you think Jesus could have the nature of God but not all the attributes of the Father? If so would you call him divine or deity?
That's a good question - but I don't think that's what would determine it. We all have in measure the nature of God, and certainly wouldn't be divine or deity (though aspects of our nature could be said to be divine). But, we're talking about identity within the Godhead. Having some or all of the divine prerogatives would be what would determine for me whether he is divine/deity and in what respect. I don't, however, think one could "be" God without having the authority that goes along with it. If the kenosis theory is correct, then He "emptied" himself of his divine prerogatives and "became" subordinate. I don't think most Trinitarians would hold that He was always subordinate -- or would they? Further, though, He didn't say the Father "returned" the authority He previously had.

One thing that has always puzzled me is most Trinitarians would insist that Jesus is not just "God" but also a separate person from the Father. And yet one of the main prooftexts for Jesus' deity suggests an identity with the Father. Carried to the literal conclusion, then the same prooftexts that support their claim of Jesus' deity would also seem to suggest unitarianism. If He and the Father truly are literally "one" (and not just figuratively "of one mind" or somesuch) and if having "seen Him" you "see the Father" means literally identity to support the deity of Christ (and not just figuratively to suggest how representative He is of the Father's character and purpose and perfect revelation), then it would seem you can't have your cake and eat it too -- either they're "the same" literally or they're separate persons.

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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by steve7150 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:17 pm

One thing that has always puzzled me is most Trinitarians would insist that Jesus is not just "God" but also a separate person from the Father. And yet one of the main prooftexts for Jesus' deity suggests an identity with the Father. Carried to the literal conclusion, then the same prooftexts that support their claim of Jesus' deity would also seem to suggest unitarianism.






But why couldn't he just be what the bible calls him "the Word of God" "the breath of God" Psalm 33. In other words as odd as it sounds to physical beings as we are, why could he not be in effect an extension of God in a way i can't really describe except by other examples like the rays of the Sun.
Are the rays of the Sun part of the Sun and do they have the physical characteristics of the Sun? I'm guessing the rays have some Sun characteristics but not all yet the rays are still part of the Sun.
So can Jesus have the nature of God but not all of his attributes yet still be truly divine? I think so but it seems to be a matter of judgment.

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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:29 pm

steve7150 wrote:One thing that has always puzzled me is most Trinitarians would insist that Jesus is not just "God" but also a separate person from the Father. And yet one of the main prooftexts for Jesus' deity suggests an identity with the Father. Carried to the literal conclusion, then the same prooftexts that support their claim of Jesus' deity would also seem to suggest unitarianism.






But why couldn't he just be what the bible calls him "the Word of God" "the breath of God" Psalm 33. In other words as odd as it sounds to physical beings as we are, why could he not be in effect an extension of God in a way i can't really describe except by other examples like the rays of the Sun.
Are the rays of the Sun part of the Sun and do they have the physical characteristics of the Sun? I'm guessing the rays have some Sun characteristics but not all yet the rays are still part of the Sun.
So can Jesus have the nature of God but not all of his attributes yet still be truly divine? I think so but it seems to be a matter of judgment.
And yet in speech we would NEVER hear someone say that the photons ARE the sun. We rightly say that they come from the sun or are emitted from the sun but not that they ARE the sun.

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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by mattrose » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:01 pm

Within the Gospels, I think there are a number of places where Jesus is either directly or indirectly referred to as God
We've talked about John 1:1 quite a bit
Jesus came to tabernacle with us, just as God did in the OT
His opponents knew that only God could forgive sins as He was
His opponents knew that He claimed to be God according to John 10:33
Thomas said, "My Lord and my God."

Outside of the Gospels, I think there are a number of places where Jesus is either directly or indirectly referred to as God
Romans 9:5 refers to the Messiah/Christ... who is God over all
Philippians 2:6, of course, says that Jesus is in very nature God
God himself calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8
Many scholars would argue that Titus 2:13 calls Jesus "God and Savior"
1 John 5:20 seems to be saying that Jesus is the true God and eternal life

Just to list a few

The interesting thing is.... the person insisting that Jesus not be called God has to disprove ALL of these texts, eh? That being said, the less verses we 'prove,' the less insistent we should be in using 'God' as our main label for Jesus.

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Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by steve7150 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:27 am

Are the rays of the Sun part of the Sun and do they have the physical characteristics of the Sun? I'm guessing the rays have some Sun characteristics but not all yet the rays are still part of the Sun.
So can Jesus have the nature of God but not all of his attributes yet still be truly divine? I think so but it seems to be a matter of judgment.



And yet in speech we would NEVER hear someone say that the photons ARE the sun. We rightly say that they come from the sun or are emitted from the sun but not that they ARE the sun.

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darinhouston





I know we are going off on a tangent perhaps but the description i used was that i thought the rays of the sun were part of the Sun but not "the Sun." So i wonder if you or i asked 10 people whether they thought the rays of the Sun were part of the Sun , what the results might be?
If my guess is right in that most people would agree that the rays of the Sun were part of the Sun , is it possible Jesus might have been or still is an extension of God?

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