Aryanism VS. Trinitarianism, or Christ VS Paganism?

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Ryan07
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Aryanism VS. Trinitarianism, or Christ VS Paganism?

Post by Ryan07 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:10 pm

It seems to me that when someone does not regard Jesus as God the door opens into many worlds of paganism. But is it possible to believe in both? In the early church days were Aryans and Trinitarians friends? I got involved in a heated debate on the nature of these things(at least as I saw it) where my opponent was delegating Christ into a mass of many named gods that all died on a cross because apparently of the shape of the constellation Orion. Now I told him I wanted to argue with him but that he was making a good point. That's my style. So just because there was someone named Tutmoses that did what Moses did or all these people supposedly died and came back and there were crosses involved, well, we have even changed Jesus name so how do I know all these stories aren't all really talking about one person? Since I do not believe carbon dating is accurate, how can someone prove to me that the Egyptian Tutmoses happened way before the Hebrew Moses because of some quackery dating system? Perhaps I believe it is all the same story about one person and I don't care about the particular culture emphasis of the story.
So this is where my debate centers in that allowing for Aryanism sortof gives way to more pagan new agey concepts that inevitably turn Jesus into a metaphor, and that is not where I want to go. I believe He is a person, and only one person, but at the same time I am not too entirely convinced of my own view points. I just have the feeling that if my own theology allows for Jesus to be something besides God then paganism is knocking on my doorstep, and yet I at the same time feel like we are allowed to talk in both ways. That he isn't God, and that He is. Any responses would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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Paidion
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Re: Aryanism VS. Trinitarianism, or Christ VS Paganism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:13 pm

You must mean "Arianism", a name which is derived from Arius who lived in the 3rd and 4th centuries.

We ought not to assume that Arians didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, because of what others have written about them. Yes, Arius was wrong in some points (Who isn't?) He thought there was a time before the Son's begetting when He did not exist. He also thought that God begat or created Him out of nothing. But I do think he was correct in teaching that the begetting of the Son was a single act (which even the early Trinitarians affirmed) rather than an "eternal begetting" as later Trinitarians worked out. They changed the original Nicene Creed which affirmed that the Son was "begotten before all ages" to affirm instead that He is "eternally begotten".

Arius was not quite the "heretic" that Catholics and Protestants have made him out to be. Notice that in his letter to Eusebius below, he refers to Christ as being "fully God":

Letter of Arius to Eusebius, Bishop of Nicomedia ---- A.D. 321

To his dearest lord, the man of God, the faithful and orthodox Eusebius, Arius, unjustly persecuted by Pope Alexander on account of that all-conquering truth which you also champion, sends greetings in the Lord.

Since my father Ammonius is going into Nicomedia, I thought it my duty to salute you by him, and at the same time advise that naturally charitable disposition of yours, which you display towards the brethren for the sake of God and his Christ, how grievously the bishop attacks and persecutes us, and comes full tilt against us, so that he drives us from the city as atheists because we do not concur with him when he publicly preaches, “God always, the Son always; at the same time the Father, at the same time the Son; the Son co-exists with God, unbegotten; he is ever-begotten; he is not born-by-begetting; neither by thought nor by any moment of time does God precede the Son; God always, Son always; the Son exists from God himself.”

Eusebius, your brother, Bishop of Caesarea, Theodatus, Paulinus, Athanasius, Gregory, Aetius, and all the other bishops of the east, have been condemned for saying that God existed, without beginning, before the Son; except Philogonius, Hellanicus, and Macarius, men who are heretics and unlearned in the faith; some of whom say that the Son is an effluence, others a projection, others that he is co-unbegotten.

To these impieties we cannot even listen, even though the heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But what we say and think we both have taught and continue to teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor part of the unbegotten in any way, nor is he derived from any substance; but that by his own will and counsel he existed before times and ages, fully God, only-begotten, unchangeable.

And before he was begotten, or created, or appointed, or established, he did not exist; for he was not unbegotten. We are persecuted because we say that the Son has a beginning, but God is without beginning. For that reason we are persecuted, and because we say that he is from what is not. And this we say because he is neither part of God nor derived from any essence. For this we are persecuted; the rest you know.

I trust, Eusebius, that you are strong in the Lord, mindful of our afflictions, a true fellow-disciple of Lucian.
Paidion

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Ryan07
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Re: Aryanism VS. Trinitarianism, or Christ VS Paganism?

Post by Ryan07 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:25 pm

Thank you for sharing that writing.

"but that by his own will and counsel he existed before times and ages"
This idea that Christ came from nothing is interesting, but how do they answer the idea that though they think he came from nothing, why then does he submit his will to something other?

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Ryan07
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Re: Aryanism VS. Trinitarianism, or Christ VS Paganism?

Post by Ryan07 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:27 pm

Oh, sorry about the typo. I have only learned of this stuff from audios and not seen it spelled out!

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Paidion
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Re: Aryanism VS. Trinitarianism, or Christ VS Paganism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:28 pm

This idea that Christ came from nothing is interesting, but how do they answer the idea that though they think he came from nothing, why then does he submit his will to something other?
I am not sure how Arians would answer that question. I think they thought Jesus was divine in the sense of having been begotten by the Father (the only-begotten son), and thus He willingly submitted. But then why do present-day Christians submit to God? Is He not something other than us? We are mere humans and not divine in any sense.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Aryanism VS. Trinitarianism, or Christ VS Paganism?

Post by Ryan07 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:41 pm

If we submit to God, and are made to be like God, how then can we not retain an aspect of the divine within us? If God lives in our heart, then how is there not something divine in us? If we are entirely human and not at all divine then we are carnal and of death, but if we deny our humanity in favor of God, then does not the flesh weaken and the spirit grow? If the spirit in us is divine, then we too retain an aspect of that divinity, though unlike Christ, it is imperfect and incomplete! Just my opinion.

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Re: Aryanism VS. Trinitarianism, or Christ VS Paganism?

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:11 pm

If that is the case, then surely it would make sense for Christ to submit to "something other" on the same basis.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Ryan07
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Re: Aryanism VS. Trinitarianism, or Christ VS Paganism?

Post by Ryan07 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:41 pm

Oh, such as, to the God within himself. For sure.

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