Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

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Ryan07
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Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Ryan07 » Sat May 24, 2014 9:28 am

I sometimes wonder if Mr. Gregg believes in the trinity so much since he has such rebellious views compared to most Christian radio broadcasters. :p:p I learned the term "extra-biblical" from an answer to a caller on an unrelated subject and wondered if it could apply to the trinity? That doesn't mean I don't believe in it. Although I'm not 100% sure I do. My new favorite topical series is the one called "Knowing God" and by the time I listened to the "Trinity" segment I was utterly convinced of the deity of Christ although I am not so sure why I have to believe in a trinity. It seems like I don't. Although it appears to be the best explanation. All well more audios to study.

Also I am not sure if saying "Jesus is God" is the same thing as them being part of each other. If they never said it so explicitly and directly in scripture aren't we better off doing the same? Using analogies and metaphors rather.

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by steve7150 » Sat May 24, 2014 10:19 am

Also I am not sure if saying "Jesus is God" is the same thing as them being part of each other. If they never said it so explicitly and directly in scripture aren't we better off doing the same? Using analogies and metaphors rather.

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IMO i find the term "Jesus is God" at best confusing and at worst misleading. My impression when i hear it is, that Jesus is God Almighty and it then gives the RCC a reason to call Mary the Mother of God. I prefer to say Jesus is divine and Mary is the mother of Jesus.

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Sat May 24, 2014 11:09 am

"... And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me" (Isaiah 45:21)
"... for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11)

Not to mention there is only One Rock, One Lord, One Judge, One creator, and only One who is Holy.

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Paidion
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Paidion » Sat May 24, 2014 12:59 pm

Ryan wrote: I sometimes wonder if Mr. Gregg believes in the trinity so much since he has such rebellious views compared to most Christian radio broadcasters.
First, I don't think Steve is a rebel. He may have been a rebel when he was a hippie, but now he is a Christian. I would say that he is a non-conformist, but that is quite different from saying that he is a rebel. The only reason his views don't coincide with "most Christian radio broadcasters" is that he is attempting to think according to Scripture rather than simply parrot the various traditional views which have been handed down to us from the middle ages.

But to answer the main question of your thread, the trinity is indeed extra-biblical, and I think Steve would be the first to admit it. Though Steve is a Trinitarian, I think he considers that as a rational view which can be inferred from the Scriptures just as well as any non-Triniarian view.

The only verse in the King James Bible and related versions which seems clearly Trinitarian is 1 John 5:7. This verse is called "the Johannine Comma" and does not appear in any Greek texts of 1 John prior to the ninth century. Indeed, the very passage occurs as a marginal note in one of the Greek manuscripts. None of the early Christian writers quoted that verse.

You can read about how it had been added, here:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by mattrose » Sat May 24, 2014 4:11 pm

I wouldn't have any problem admitting that "The Trinity" is "Extra-Biblical" either, but that is more a result of the fact that the Bible is not a theological encyclopedia than that the doctrine of the Trinity isn't true. I believe it is a good theological doctrine... a solid attempt by human beings to explain the facts that have been revealed. Most likely the best attempt.

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Sun May 25, 2014 8:35 am

Is the Deity of Christ extra biblical?
Is monotheism extra biblical?
'There is One God'
Jesus made himself equal with God.
If Jesus is not God, then he is a Pagan, a false teacher, and by The First Commandment in the Law, be put to death (which He was).
All this is in the Bible. Therefore it is not extra biblical.

Arguing about the person of the Holy Spirit is another thing, but if you believe Jesus, then it follows that you would have to believe: He knew what He was saying when He spoke of the Comforter as ‘another’ person.

(My name is not in the Bible, but it is not extra-biblical to say; I am 'not' God)

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Paidion » Sun May 25, 2014 8:53 am

JR wrote:Jesus made himself equal with God.
The apostle Paul directly contradicted this assertion:
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (Phil 2:5-7 ESV)
Jesus also said, "The Father is greater than I." (John 14:28).

To me, "greater than" does not sound like "equal to".
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Sun May 25, 2014 10:34 am

"who, though he was in the form of God...
(you may have skipped the part above)

... did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped...
(He did not 'assert' His divinity or Omnipotence, nor take away from Gods place, but humbled Himself as a man)

... but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
(this is called the Incarnation Paidion, note also John 17:5)

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Singalphile » Sun May 25, 2014 11:41 am

Ryan07 wrote:... and by the time I listened to the "Trinity" segment [of the "Knowing God" lecture series] I was utterly convinced of the deity of Christ although I am not so sure why I have to believe in a trinity. It seems like I don't. Although it appears to be the best explanation. ....
Also I am not sure if saying "Jesus is God" is the same thing as them being part of each other. If they never said it so explicitly and directly in scripture aren't we better off doing the same? Using analogies and metaphors rather.
I was listening to the "Knowing God" lectures yesterday (though I've heard them before). I agree with you. A "bi-nitarian" understanding of God the Father and Jesus, the Word/Son of God, seems unavoidable, and surely the Holy Spirit of God can be equated with God in the same way that I equate my own spirit (whatever that might be) with me.

So I'm a trinitarian. I might be wrong, but I don't suppose that God is angry at someone who thinks too highly of those whom He calls His son and His spirit (especially if it's a conclusion reached through humble study and prayer).

It sometimes seems irreverent to talk about God like He's a species of creature to be analyzed and categorized. Maybe this is why the NT writers didn't do it. I think it's fair to say that if "the Bible teaches" the Trinity doctrine, then "the Bible" is a poor teacher. This is true for many concepts that one hears from preachers these days. I don't entirely object to theories and speculation (much of which I agree with), but we'd be better off acknowledging them as such, I think, and generally sticking to the Biblical text, as you said.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Paidion
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Paidion » Sun May 25, 2014 2:11 pm

who, though he was in the form of God...
(you may have skipped the part above)
Why do you think I would "skip" that part? If you had read my posts on the matter on other threads, you would know that I believe that Jesus was begotten by God before all ages, that He is "the exact imprint of [God's] essence" (Heb 1:3) and that He is the "only-begotten God" (John 1:18 in papyrus 66 and papyrus 75 from the second century, the two oldest known extant manuscipts of the passage)

... did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped...
(He did not 'assert' His divinity or Omnipotence, nor take away from Gods place, but humbled Himself as a man)
So how did you decide that "αρπαγμος ηγησατο" means "assert"? Lexicons define "αρπαγμος" as "1) the act of seizing, robbery 2) a thing seized or to be seized" and "ηγησατο" as "did not consider, deem, account, think". Jesus did not consider equality with God a thing to be seized by robbery. If He were already equal to God, there would be nothing to seize.
... but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
(this is called the Incarnation Paidion, note also John 17:5)
So what are you telling me that I don't know? That is the very point of the statement. Instead of seeking equality with God, Jesus humbled Himself and became a human being. You have neither showed my affirmations to have been false, nor justified your own statement that Jesus "made Himself equal with God". Nowhere do you find that in the Bible. Rather you find that Jesus said, "The Father is greater than I." You have not shown this statement of Jesus harmonizes with your claim that Jesus "made Himself equal with God." To the unpredjudiced mind, it is clear that Jesus thereby claimed that He was not equal to the Father. Rather the Father is greater.
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