Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

[Homer]

Brenden wrote:

Anymore, I extend my hand of spiritual fellowship to any who say they believe that Jesus is the unique Son of God. Beyond that it matters little to me.

And nowhere are we required to affirm more than this. But we can not leave it at this when challenged by others such as Muslims and Jews. Why do we worship Jesus? I would say that Jesus often gets as much or more worship than God.

This is not merely an academic matter and we can not leave it at that.

Moses records God as saying:

Exodus 34:14 (NASB)
14. —for you shall not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God—

Which Jesus affirms:

Luke 4:8 (NASB)
8. Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

But we find:

Hebrews 1:6 (NASB)
6. And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Matthew 14:33 (NASB)
33. And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

Matthew 28:16-17 (NASB)
16. But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Polycarp 12:2
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal
High-priest Himself the [Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in
faith and truth, and in all gentleness and in all avoidance of wrath
and in forbearance and long suffering and in patient endurance and in
purity; and may He grant unto you a lot and portion among His saints,
and to us with you, and to all that are under heaven, who shall
believe on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on His Father that
raised him from the dead.

Ignatius to the Ephesians
18:2 For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived in
the womb by Mary according to a dispensation, of the
seed of David but also of the Holy Ghost; and He was
born and was baptized that by His passion He might
cleanse water.

Why did Jesus not rebuke them for worshipping Him? Why did the earliest Christians, including Polycarp who was taught by the apostles, believe Jesus was God? Why do Christians worship Jesus today? Are they wrong in doing so? If He is not God do Christians today sin in their worship practice?

[Paidion]

Why did Jesus not rebuke them for worshipping Him? Why did the earliest Christians, including Polycarp who was taught by the apostles, believe Jesus was God? Why do Christians worship Jesus today? Are they wrong in doing so? If He is not God do Christians today sin in their worship practice?

There is no doubt that Jesus is worthy of worship! And the scriptures you offered, Homer, clearly indicate that angels and his disciples worshipped Him.
But that, together with your quote from Exodus and your quote of Jesus' quote in Luke 4, do not prove that Jesus is the One God who is to be worshipped.
The Son of God shares the name "Yahweh" with the Father. Justin Martyr quoted Gen 19:24 to Trypho to show that there were two divine Individuals called "Yahweh", one in heaven, and one on earth who was talking to Abraham.

The question is, what do we mean when we say "Jesus is God"?
1. When Modalists say, "Jesus is God", they mean that He is the One and Only divine Individual.
2. When Trinitarians say,"Jesus is God", they mean that He is one of three divine Individuals who are somehow united into One compound Being.
3. Justin Martyr also said that Jesus may be called "God". I think he meant that Jesus, having been begotten by God before all ages, was therefore just as divine as the Father. The writer to the Hebrews said that the Son of God was the exact imprint of the Father's essence. I think that is pretty much the same idea. Indeed, I believe "Jesus is God" in this sense. But I don't often use this terminology, because it is so easily misunderstood.

[Homer]

Paidion,

1. When Modalists say, "Jesus is God", they mean that He is the One and Only divine Individual.

I do not buy that one.

2. When Trinitarians say,"Jesus is God", they mean that He is one of three divine Individuals who are somehow united into One compound Being.

Three individuals sure seems to be three Gods.

3. Justin Martyr also said that Jesus may be called "God". I think he meant that Jesus, having been begotten by God before all ages, was therefore just as divine as the Father. The writer to the Hebrews said that the Son of God was the exact imprint of the Father's essence. I think that is pretty much the same idea. Indeed, I believe "Jesus is God" in this sense. But I don't often use this terminology, because it is so easily misunderstood.

Again this seems to be polytheistic. So how do we justify worshipping Jesus yet maintain there is only one God (monotheism)? For myself, I believe Jesus is God and there is only one God. Yet I believe God manifested Himself as the Son whereas at a time previous Jesus was the Word and was not the Son. And I tend to believe Jesus appeared as the Angel of the Lord in OT times. So what am I?

[TheEditor]

You wrote:

And nowhere are we required to affirm more than this. But we can not leave it at this when challenged by others such as Muslims and Jews. Why do we worship Jesus? I would say that Jesus often gets as much or more worship than God.

This is not merely an academic matter and we can not leave it at that.

Interstingly, implicit in your statement is a differentiation, not between Jesus and the Father, but between Jesus and God.

Perhaps it is found in the way we moderns think of words like "worship" "divine" and "God" that comes into play. I cannot say I have all the answers. I am not John Macarthur or RC Sproul after all.

But leaving that aside, I would say that it is indeed an academic exercise. There is nothing that I can do to draw people to the Son of God by either agreeing with a trinitarian formula or disagreeing with it.

I see Jesus ministry in the flesh as a sort of microcosm.

Some of the crowds that saw and heard Jesus said, "He deceives the people," others contended, "He is a good man." (John 7:12,13) Jesus moved large crowds. We’re told that people were "astonished" at his "gracious" or "winsome" words. (Luke 4:22) "the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority." (Matt. 7:28,29) Jesus' knowledge was recognized as not having come from the rabbinical schooling program of his day, for on another occasion we read: "The Jews were amazed and asked, 'How did this man get such learning without having studied?'" (John7:15) Even temple guards sent to seize him said about him, "No one ever spoke the way this man does." (John 7:46)

In addition to Jesus’ manner and teaching, the gospel writers tell us he performed miracles. "When the Christ comes, will he do more miraculous signs that this man?" asked some of the crowd. (John 7:31) Jesus appealed to the evidence of his Father's work through him: "…even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles…" (John 10:38) Jesus' resurrection of Lazarus evoked basically two responses among the eyewitnesses: "Therefore many of the Jews…put their faith in [Jesus]. But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done." (John 11:45,46) In discussing what to do about the problem that Jesus posed, members of the Sanhedrin did not deny what the eyewitnesses had reported, but rather they admitted: "Here is this man performing many miraculous signs." --John 11:47.

The Gospel accounts provide us with portraits of both faith and disbelief. As I said above, I see Jesus' ministry in the flesh as a sort of microcosm--a small-scale version of how Jesus might be received generally by persons simply exposed to him by means of the testimony in the Gospels. And, when it comes to what has taken place over the centuries with the spread of the good news concerning Christ, essentially what do we see?

Like in the first century, opinion is mixed. Some see Jesus as a good man and have some feeling after him; they’re attracted to his compassion and to some extent benefit from him. Others see him as a fraud. Some deny he existed altogether. Some are genuinely drawn to him as the sinless Son of God. If I find some in this latter category, who am I to make sure they "have it right" in their theology. (Whatever "right" may be). If the accounts regarding Jesus are not enough to move or "draw" a person to Him, then are we going to accomplish some master stroke by making sure they get the proper confessionalism down?

For myself, I feel no need to impress upon others my opinions regarding the nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son, nor do I feel the need to erect yet another stumbling block to those who may be drawn to the Person of Jesus. If trinitarianism works for a person and they are comfortable in so affirming, great. If Modulism works, fine. If Arianism is the only way their minds can apprehend the incomprehensibilty of God's eternity, what's wrong with that?

Regards, Brenden.

[darinhouston]

Matthew 14:33 (NASB)
33. And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

Matthew 28:16-17 (NASB)
16. But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Ok, but everything has context -- as I understand it, even the term for worship doesn't necessarily imply more than "revere" or "pay homage" in some contexts. Looking at Matthew 14:33, how did they worship Him? It doesn't tell us that they did the sort of things they would have done for God -- (making sacrifices to Him, etc.) -- what did they do? They honored/revered/paid homage to Him -- by professing what? not that He was GOD, but that He was God's Son (worthy of such). Looking at Matthew 28:16-17, they ALL worshipped him. It doesn't say HOW they worshipped Him, but in doing so SOME of them (implicitly some of those who worshipped Him) were doubtful. Since they worshipped Him in doubt, that's hardly the same sort of "worship" God commands us to give Himself and sounds more along the lines of bowing a knee to a king or prince out of respect for their position (surely, Son of God is worthy of such without implying "GODship"). No?

[Homer]

Darin,

You wrote:

Ok, but everything has context -- as I understand it, even the term for worship doesn't necessarily imply more than "revere" or "pay homage" in some contexts. Looking at Matthew 14:33, how did they worship Him? It doesn't tell us that they did the sort of things they would have done for God -- (making sacrifices to Him, etc.) -- what did they do? They honored/revered/paid homage to Him -- by professing what? not that He was GOD, but that He was God's Son (worthy of such). Looking at Matthew 28:16-17, they ALL worshipped him. It doesn't say HOW they worshipped Him, but in doing so SOME of them (implicitly some of those who worshipped Him) were doubtful. Since they worshipped Him in doubt, that's hardly the same sort of "worship" God commands us to give Himself and sounds more along the lines of bowing a knee to a king or prince out of respect for their position (surely, Son of God is worthy of such without implying "GODship"). No?

But how do you see the worship we do today? I see no difference made between how the Father is worshipped and how the Son is worshipped. According to your post, shouldn't there be?

[Homer]

Brenden,

You wrote:

But leaving that aside, I would say that it is indeed an academic exercise. There is nothing that I can do to draw people to the Son of God by either agreeing with a trinitarian formula or disagreeing with it.

Would you say it is merely an academic issue for a missionary among Muslims? And if Jesus is not God, isn't it wrong to worship Him as much or more than God (the father)?

[TheEditor]

Hi Homer,

Would you say it is merely an academic issue for a missionary among Muslims? And if Jesus is not God, isn't it wrong to worship Him as much or more than God (the father)?

Actually, I am fairly radical about this. I truly believe that the Church (as that nebulous quasi corporate/spiritual body) made a wrong turn when they tried to dope it all out and demand people confess certain "dogmas" to be considered Christian, and now, we are stuck with the fallout. In my ideal theological world, a Muslim would be as attracted to Jesus as a Jew or a Pagan. "Who" Jesus is outside of recognizing Him as the unique Son of God; the Prophet like unto Moses, should be entirely a matter for us to sort through as individuals. I have known godly people who are trinitarians, Arians, Modulists, Socinians, etc. The only reason it becomes an issue, is because some post-apostolic theorist decided to make it one.

Regards, Brenden.

[darinhouston]

But how do you see the worship we do today? I see no difference made between how the Father is worshipped and how the Son is worshipped. According to your post, shouldn't there be?

Perhaps and perhaps. Jesus accepted worship, but always to the glory of the Father. So, perhaps there should be some differentiation in the ultimate object of that worship, though I do believe Jesus is worthy of authentic worship, and He has all authority I need to concern myself. I have used this analogy before, but consider a prince (and no I don't think of Jesus as "merely" a prince). That prince has the blood of the King in his veins and likely carries the ring of authority from the King when he visits the villages in the kingdom. Insofar as it matters to the "little people" of the village, the prince is to be treated and revered and "worshipped" AS IF he was the king. He carries that authority in all the ways that really should matter to the little people. It is not for them to even question how and to what extent and what limits might exist. But, they don't have to pretend that the prince is, in actual fact, the same person as the King to share His authority. The prince is "royal" and that's all that matters to the little people. To carry the analogy further, if the prince started acting for his own glory and not as the image bearer of the king, then the king probably wouldn't have given him his ring or would probably remove it from him. Jesus is worthy of the glory and honor given to him, and we disrespect the Father if we don't give Him that.

[PR]

Brenden, how do you understand the command Jesus gave in Matthew 28:19-20?

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

"Actually, I am fairly radical about this. I truly believe that the Church (as that nebulous quasi corporate/spiritual body) made a wrong turn when they tried to dope it all out and demand people confess certain "dogmas" to be considered Christian, and now, we are stuck with the fallout. In my ideal theological world, a Muslim would be as attracted to Jesus as a Jew or a Pagan. "Who" Jesus is outside of recognizing Him as the unique Son of God; the Prophet like unto Moses, should be entirely a matter for us to sort through as individuals. I have known godly people who are trinitarians, Arians, Modulists, Socinians, etc. The only reason it becomes an issue, is because some post-apostolic theorist decided to make it one."

Thanks

Phil