Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

dizerner

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by dizerner » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:12 pm

Paidion wrote:The Father and the Son are two distinct Persons, though they are also One in purpose, love, and all other divine attributes. The Son is Another exactly like the Father. He is the exact imprint of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3). They share the same spirit, and they extend this their shared spirit into the hearts of the faithful. So Paul wrote of "the spirit of God" as well as "the spirit of Christ."

Jesus said these words to Judas (not Iscariot):

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (John 14:23)

How do the Father and the Son come and make their home with those who love Jesus? The Father is in heaven, and the Son is seated at his right hand.
The answer: They extend their shared spirit into those who love Jesus.

I might add, that when Jesus was on earth, his spirit was confined to his body. When the Holy Spirit descended upon Him, it was the spirit of the Father alone.
Jesus said these words:
But I am telling you the truth. It is to your benefit that I go away, for if I do not go away, the advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send it to you. (John 16:7)

I think it is universally accepted that the advocate is the spirit of God and/or Jesus. Why could the spirit of Jesus not come until after his death? Because prior to his death, it was confined to his body. But afterward, after He BECAME a life-giving spirit (1 Cor 15:45), He could extend Himself by means of his spirit to any location that He wished.
That's an interesting theology, but it seems odd that you simply switch the personality "extension" however you need to in each specific context. We have a real distinction being made in Scripture and you'd have to simply ignore it to discount it:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever --

If words mean anything "another" can not mean "the same."

And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

If words mean anything, these cannot be the same identities.

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

So one of the Holy Spirits knows the day and hour, and the other Holy Spirit doesn't know it? It seems a killer blow to that theology.

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Paidion
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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Paidion » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:12 pm

Homer, you wrote:Anyway, for starters I would ask the question differently: how is Jesus or the Father in us or with us in any real sense? In Matt. 18:20 Jesus promised the He would be in the midst of His gathered people. Did He merely mean in thought, or sympathy, or a Clintonesque sense as in "I feel your pain"? Or as an impersonal power or sense? Is his "personality" with us, whatever that means? Or is He really with us (and in us) in a personal sense through a personal Spirit?
He really is with us (and in us) in a personal sense through a personal spirit.—a personal spirit, but not a third Person or Individual. The only reason I don't capitalize "spirit" is due to the fact that that seems to suggest to people that the spirit is a third divine Person.
Homer, you wrote:So He is not with His people in any personal way if the Spirit is impersonal.
I have never indicated or even suggested that the spirit is impersonal. It or "He" if you prefer, is the very persons of the Father and of the Son, and They extend Themselves into the hearts of the faithful. But the Father and the Son are so united in every way except their distinctiveness as two Persons, that this spirit or extension is one.
What exactly is the Spirit?
the spirit of the Father and of the Son are extensions of their Persons to any location in the universe which they choose.
You have said it is the personality of the Father and the Son.
Yes, I have said that. But when I wrote that, I didn't mean "the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character."
I meant the wholly unified Persons of the Father and of the Son in their extended form.
But I am telling you the truth. It is to your benefit that I go away, for if I do not go away, the advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send it to you. (John 16:7)
What justification do you have for changing a personal pronoun (autos, masculine third person singular) into an it?
I haven't CHANGED anything. Consider the following quote from Basics of Biblical Greek by William D. Mounce:
"The gender and number of pronouns are determined by the gender and number of the antecedent." (Chapter 12, Section 2)
The antecedent in this case is "παρακλητος" (advocate), which is a masculine noun. Therefore the personal pronoun referring to the advocate must also be masculine. The fact that the personal pronoun is masculine has no relationship to the gender of the "advocate" to which it refers, only to the gender of the word "advocate".

There is no grammatical reason for translating this pronoun as "him" rather than "it." The reason for doing so is theological, or perhaps merely traditional.
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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:02 pm

This idea reminds me of Paidion's arguing for the use of the word 'it' in the New World Translation, here on this forum at :
http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... T&start=10
And sounds like the NWT "... God's active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters" (Genesis 1:1-2 NWT).

And on the same note, although Paidion's declaration that "the Father and the Son are so united in every way except their distinctiveness as two Persons, that this spirit or extension is one" seems to suggest an agreeable solution or allusion to Jesus and God being one (God, Who alone is The King, Savior, and Lord of Israel). Paidion's theology suggests Jesus is God in a sense, but Jesus is not the true God (and reminds me of the Mormon line that they are indeed one, in purpose). This is the antithesis, or opposite of Gods revelation and truth that 'there is none like God' (Says David, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah) and it is an exhausting attempt to try and make it seem palatable when it is well established Command and precept that God has no equal (before, near, together, or along with) and to have no other gods, or even mention them (or make an attempt to justify their equality with God).

And it seems to have been demonstrated here that every other attempt argument, objection and refusal to believe Jesus is God, is guilty of the same error, it always ends with turning Jesus into a created being who is not God, and therefore turning another being or something created into Gods equal.

'For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will'

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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Homer » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:08 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
I have never indicated or even suggested that the spirit is impersonal. It or "He" if you prefer, is the very persons of the Father and of the Son, and They extend Themselves into the hearts of the faithful. But the Father and the Son are so united in every way except their distinctiveness as two Persons, that this spirit or extension is one.
If the Holy Spirit is the "very persons" why would you not translate it as "they"?

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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Paidion » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:10 pm

If the Holy Spirit is the "very persons" why would you not translate it as "they"?
Because it is one spirit shared by two divine Persons. The two persons may be referred to as "They."

Even we can become one spirit with the Lord:

But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. (1Co 6:17)

How much more are the Father and the Son one spirit (who are of one essence)!

It seems to me that the following verse clearly indicates that there are two divine Individuals: ONE true God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, the former being the Creator, and the latter being the One through whom the former created all things.

Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1Co 8:6)
Paidion

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dizerner

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by dizerner » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:47 pm

But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. (1Co 6:17)
I would just clarify that this doesn't mean our spirit could be considered the Holy Spirit in any way, shape or form. This is a union compared to the union of man with a prostitute, and thus a form of spiritual intimacy, as Scripture says "the man will be joined to his wife and the two shall be one flesh." The Holy Spirit is described as living in us, and our spirit is described as being "made alive" by him, but nowhere does our spirit become the Holy Spirit, rather we are described as being in Christ through the Holy Spirit. The union we have with Christ is constantly attempted to be compared to the union of the Trinity, which is of a different kind.

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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:21 am

Dizerner wrote:I would just clarify that this doesn't mean our spirit could be considered the Holy Spirit in any way, shape or form.
You are right, of course. Perhaps, I should have affirmed that when I made the analogy. However, the point you just made strengthens the point I was trying to make. Just as we can become one spirit with the Lord Jesus (in SOME sense) without our spirit becoming "a third Person of the Trinity," so can Jesus be united with the Father in one spirit without that spirit becoming "a third Person of the Trinity." Of course the unity of the Father and the Son in one spirit is a total unity, a complete unity, so that They move and act as a single individual would. I think that may be why some consider that one spirit to be a third divine Person.

However, I suppose that our becoming one spirit with the Lord Jesus, at least in this life, is never that complete.
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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:20 pm

The point you made strengthens the point I have been making: No man or thing can ever claim to be 'One with God' or claim 'equality with God'. That is the point.

We understand we are in Him, but we are not Him. There is no-sense in our believing we, or anything, is like God. Jesus did many things that made people believe He was God. I do not believe Jesus or the disciples threw out the Old Testament, that is why I can trust myself in Him, only because He must be God. I do not want to put myself into, or trust in anything or anyone but God alone. Its scary to think we would trust ourselves to be in something, join with, or be one with something who is not God.

Everything other than knowing Jesus is God, believes there is something other than God that is like God. It also believes other things can be like God. All other theologies have to turn Jesus into ‘another being’ who is just like God. It confirms that another being can be like God as with the Arians and Mormons and such. And it opens the door and allows a man, or men, to ultimately be equals with God, as with Unitarians, Religious, Mind, Divine science, and most every other religion in the world.
‘… so can Jesus be united with the Father in one spirit without that spirit becoming "a third Person of the Trinity’
No one could claim to be united with God in spirit without committing blasphemy, but Jesus did. Obviously nobody becomes like God, unless they are God. Jesus claimed to equality with God, one in spirit with God, and Oneness in the Holiest sense. Jesus lives in humanity, and we live in Him, but we never become Him.

Jesus clearly knew what He was saying when Jesus said 'I and The Father are One'. He understood the context and content of the Shema, The Law, the Oneness of God and Monotheism, He taught it and wrote it. The difference is like light and dark: One shall never be the other. It is idolatry to equate anything with God, it shall always be so says God. :)

dizerner

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by dizerner » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:20 pm

Paidion wrote:
Dizerner wrote:I would just clarify that this doesn't mean our spirit could be considered the Holy Spirit in any way, shape or form.
You are right, of course. Perhaps, I should have affirmed that when I made the analogy. However, the point you just made strengthens the point I was trying to make. Just as we can become one spirit with the Lord Jesus (in SOME sense) without our spirit becoming "a third Person of the Trinity," so can Jesus be united with the Father in one spirit without that spirit becoming "a third Person of the Trinity." Of course the unity of the Father and the Son in one spirit is a total unity, a complete unity, so that They move and act as a single individual would. I think that may be why some consider that one spirit to be a third divine Person.

However, I suppose that our becoming one spirit with the Lord Jesus, at least in this life, is never that complete.
Well, you know I do think Jesus was one spirit with the Father, that is complete spiritual union, I just don't think that union is somehow personified. If we take Holy Spirit and try to put "spiritual union of Christ and the Father" everywhere it is, it just doesn't work at all.

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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:51 pm

Dizerner wrote:If we take Holy Spirit and try to put "spiritual union of Christ and the Father" everywhere it is, it just doesn't work at all.
What if we take "Holy Spirit" and replace it sometimes with "God extended", and in other instances as "the Son extended" and in yet other instances as "The unified Father and Son extended." Would that work? And if not, why not? ("God extended" means God existing elsewhere than his place in heaven, usually somewhere on earth, including within his people).

Let's try some examples:

Mt 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God [God extended] descending like a dove and coming to rest on him.

Php 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ [the Son extended] this will turn out for my deliverance,

Lu 12:12 for the Holy Spirit [the unified Father and the Son extended] will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

Luke 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit [God extended], returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness

Joh 16:7 ¶ nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the advocate [the Son extended] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Joh 14:26 but the advocate, the Holy Spirit [the Son extended], whom the father will send in my name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Joh 14:21-23 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself [the Son extended] to him.”
Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we [the unified Father and the Son extended] will come to him and make our home with him.
Paidion

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