Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:41 am

I believe it was Homer who suggested that Jesus was our connection to the Father and that the Holy Spirit was our connection to Jesus. I have started this topic to address that subject.

Homer, maybe I'm having a "senior moment," but do you have Scriptural support for this? It strikes me that it is being "in Christ" which connects us directly to the Father and that it is through the Spirit that the Father interacts with us. In my view, the Holy Spirit IS the Father since He is Spirit. Jesus would then by our connection to both,.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Paidion » Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:38 pm

I agree, Darin, that the Father IS the Spirit.
It is also the case that the Lord Jesus IS the Spirit.

Now the Lord [Jesus] is the Spirit... (2Co 3:17 ESV)

The word "Jesus" is not in the text, but when read in context, it is clear that He is meant.

As I see it, the Spirit is the very Persons of the Father and the Son extended anywhere in the universe they wish, and especially into the hearts of the faithful.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by dizerner » Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:38 pm

It was me, not Homer, but I appreciate the chance to share the Scriptural testimony.

The witness in Scripture seems quite strong.

And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both [Jew and Gentile] have our access in one Spirit to the Father. (Eph 2:17-18 NAS)


Through Christ believers have access in one Spirit to the Father:

So through the Spirit we access to the Father through Christ. Spirit -> Christ -> Father.

How are we "in Christ"? How is Christ "in us"? Who applies the Work of Christ?

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ are here shown to be completely synonymous. This fits in beautifully with the Trinity doctrine when we see the Spirit has personality also.

And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

If the Spirit of God is in us, Christ is in us, if Christ is in us, the work of Christ is applied to our old self.

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your death-filled bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Rom 8:9-11)

Who applies the work of Christ? Again, the Spirit of the Father raised Jesus, the Spirit who raised Christ, raises us too. Christians -> Spirit -> Christ -> Father. Same pattern.

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
(1Co 12:11-13 NAS)


The Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ and by drinking of the Spirit that Christ made available, so that by virtue of being in Christ, Christ's Father is our Father too. Again the Trinity is completely wrapped around a believer's salvation.

The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1Co 15:45 NAS)

But how did the last Adam become this—only be rending the veil through his work, the veil between God and man, the veil of his own body.

The forerunner John the baptizer said Christ will baptize with the Spirit, as did Christ himself, and Christ himself encourages us to ask for the Father for the Spirit. The Apostle John writes that the Father gives the Son the Spirit without measure for the Son's obedience. In John 14 we see Jesus' last discourse to his followers, and he says because he "goes to the Father" (in his work of death and resurrection) that therefore he can send "another Helper." The Spirit is clearly released and casually linked to Christ's work over and over. Christ says "if anyone believes in me" that then he and the Father will come and make their home in him—now how does that happen? Because Christ later says "The Spirit of Truth who has been with you will now be in you." Spirit -> Son -> Father. To minister in the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, to live in the Spirit, all speak of living in the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. In the upper room after Christ's resurrection appearance Christ breathed on the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit (the breath of Christ's mouth which will also slay the lawless). There is a reason Christ did not do this before his work was accomplished.

In Romans 8 we are told:

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. (Rom 8:14-17 NAS)

Sonship and adoption are because of the work of Christ and applied by partaking of the Holy Spirit.

How are we children of God? Being led by the Spirit of God. What does the Spirit witness to? That we are children of God. Why are we children of God? We are fellow heirs with Christ, and therefore hears of God. Spirit -> Christ -> Father.

As Galatians tells us:

But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (Gal 4:6 NAS)

The work of Christ causes the Spirit of his Son to be sent forth into our hearts and thereby become brothers and sisters with Christ having God truly as our Father. (Incidentally asking the Holy Spirit into our hearts is more Biblical than asking Christ into our hearts, but the Trinity is so in unity that asking the Spirit, Son, or Father, into our hearts tantamounts to the same thing if we understand the work of the cross, anyway.)

Paul tells us "neither height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And how does Paul claim to know the things he says? In the very next verse he begins:

"I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit."

So the Spirit bears witness that the love of God was expressed in the work of Christ, and therefore will not depart us, just as Christ said he would ask the Father to send the Spirit who would bear witness of Christ.

This is why the Spirit is spoken of as a seal of redemption and token or pledge of promised inheritance.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph 4:30 NAS)
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. (2Co 5:5 NAS)
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (2Co 1:21-22 NAS)


We have a further witness putting this all together:

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Eph 1:13-14 NAS)

Can we find this principle in Old Testament? We surely can. When David speaks of his repentance after Bathsheba, how does he word his separation from God and his repentance to restore that fellowship?

Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Thy salvation (Psa 51:11-12 NAS)

To take away God's Holy Spirit was to take away David's salvation. This salvation, as I have shown elsewhere, is only in Christ and only through God. Simeon said "Mine eyes have beheld thy salvation" upon merely looking at the baby Christ, who was God's salvation. And Isaiah very clearly writes that God's own hand alone brings salvation, and no one with Him. Just as the anointing oil was put on top of the sacrificial blood, so the Spirit always is released through the Blood of Christ, which blood was sacrificed Godward.
Last edited by dizerner on Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:26 pm

As I said before we would be Modalists, and Jesus is just another name for God, if Jesus did not talk to the Father as another person does.

And we would believe Jesus and God were One God and the Spirit just another word for them both, except that Jesus speaks of the Spirit as a person. Period.

We know, and we knew already that the scriptures speak of the Spirit of God as God, it is Gods Spirit. BUT Jesus speaks of The Spirit as a person, SO WE BELIEVE JESUS. And we say well, then I will speak of The Spirit as a person then because Jesus did, or else don't believe the following verses:

“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you' (John 14:25-26) "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me" (John 15:26) "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged' 12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15“All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. (John 16:7-14)

I don't think God would have even made the distinction between Him and the others, except that I believe God does this so man does not think 'all' of what God is indwells one person, or any of us. Or that God has no order or difference of depth within Himself, and we should know that God has ordained that we meet with Him on His terms, because we are different than God and we are sinners, therefore we must always remember and be reminded that we needed a Savior, and come to God through His blood. Just as God is many things for us, and not just GOD, so He is a comforter, a King, a friend, a shepherd, a husband, and One who is not unfamiliar with who we are (humans). Because we will be like Him, a unity of many, believers, and the three are actually three, that's what Jesus said.

And so all that you said Diz above, I agree, awesome. And Paidion, so close yet...

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Paidion » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:56 pm

Dizerner, you wrote:Again, the Spirit of the Father raised Jesus, the Spirit who raised Christ, raises us too.
Look carefully at your quote just prior to making this statement:

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your death-filled bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Rom 8:9-11)

Do you really think this statement says that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead and will also raise us? Please look at it once more. The one who raised Jesus and will give life to our bodies, I have shown in red.

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your death-filled bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Rom 8:9-11)

The one who raised Jesus and will give life to us is the Father. The fact that it is the Father who raised Jesus is clearly stated in other passages:

Ac 13:30 "But God raised Him from the dead.
Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
1Pe 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


In Acts 13:30, Rom 10:9, and Col 2:12, the One who raised Jesus from the dead is "the God" (it has the article). When "theos" is preceded by the article "ho" (the) and there are no other modifiers of "theos", then "ho theos" ALWAYS refers to the Father.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by dizerner » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:09 pm

I understand your point.

Who does the verse say gives life to our death-filled bodies?

The Father...

The Father alone?

The Father through... His Spirit.

Exactly the same description as for Christ. The Father raised Christ through the Holy Spirit. The power is ascribed both to the Holy Spirit and to the Father (as well as to Christ himself actually). (Romans 1:4 and many others).

Likewise many of the things Christ did, it is said the Father himself did. Rather than turn to modalism I attribute it to their intense unity and shared divine nature.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:59 pm

Romans 1:4?. You must have a different translation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Paidion » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:14 pm

Dizerner, you wrote:The Father alone?

The Father through... His Spirit.
Correct. The verse states that the Father gives life through his spirit.

I suppose from your point of view, this is understood as the coöperative work of two divine Individuals.
But from my point of view, by understanding the spirit of the Father to be...well, "the spirit of the Father", that is, the extension of Himself, and not a different divine Individual, then it is still the work of the Father alone.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by TheEditor » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:57 pm

Perhaps it would be good to bear in mind that the word "spirit" is not used exclusively in a non-corporeal or "entity" sense. Even today we refer to a person having a "good spirit" or a "bad spirit" and we are not referring to an invisible entity, power, force or otherwise; we are referring to a dominant mental inclination. I am sure some verses that talk about the "spirit of Christ" are referring to his disposition as opposed to the other.

Regards, Brenden
.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by dizerner » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:42 pm

TheEditor wrote:Perhaps it would be good to bear in mind that the word "spirit" is not used exclusively in a non-corporeal or "entity" sense. Even today we refer to a person having a "good spirit" or a "bad spirit" and we are not referring to an invisible entity, power, force or otherwise; we are referring to a dominant mental inclination. I am sure some verses that talk about the "spirit of Christ" are referring to his disposition as opposed to the other.

Regards, Brenden
.
Surely you can't think that "attitude" fits many of the uses of spirit.

Post Reply

Return to “The Trinity”