Baptism of Jesus

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darinhouston
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Baptism of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:49 pm

Not sure quite where to put this question, but I think it bears on the Trinity in some respects...

Please share your thoughts about why Jesus needed to be baptized by John.

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mattrose
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Re: Baptism of Jesus

Post by mattrose » Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:46 pm

I think the baptism of Jesus accomplished a number of helpful things...

It was a clear and public marker for the beginning of his ministry
It was an endorsement of John's ministry
It represented his total surrender to the will of his Father (death to self)
It represented his baptismal life would be in the power of the Spirit
It was an identification with humanity
It set an example for humanity
It served as an occasion for a revelation of God's trinitarian nature.

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darinhouston
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Re: Baptism of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:34 pm

What does all that have to do with righteousness?


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Homer
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Re: Baptism of Jesus

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:04 am

Darin,

I'm thinking on this. But one thing seems obvious, and that is that we are not baptized for the same reason Jesus was baptized. If so, Jesus was baptized for the same reason we are. But our baptism has to do with our sin. The baptism of John had the meaning of repentance and ours has the meaning of repentance and faith in Christ. But Jesus submitted to John's baptism yet Jesus had no sin to repent of, nor could He be baptized into (Grk. eis) Himself (Christ).

Hmm...Lord willing more to come.

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Re: Baptism of Jesus

Post by steve7150 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:25 am

What does all that have to do with righteousness?









I think Jesus more identified with us as the Son of Man and in that role it was righteous for him to be baptized even if it was a symbolic ceremony. Maybe it was symbolic of his future death and resurrection or his obedience or the beginning of his ministry or because he was as "Son of Man" our representative or to validate John the Baptist or for his role as our Priest or all of the above?

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darinhouston
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Re: Baptism of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:04 am

steve7150 wrote:I think Jesus more identified with us as the Son of Man and in that role it was righteous for him to be baptized even if it was a symbolic ceremony. Maybe it was symbolic of his future death and resurrection or his obedience or the beginning of his ministry or because he was as "Son of Man" our representative or to validate John the Baptist or for his role as our Priest or all of the above?
That's certainly the standard answer. I don't find it all that satisfying in light of John's question and Jesus' answer which has a tone or connotation of "requirement." Particularly in light of the tremendous and metaphysical empowering event that immediately succeeded it (and seems connected to it), I get the impression it was a requirement, but that's begs many questions. Hence my post.

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Homer
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Re: Baptism of Jesus

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:12 am

John Mark Hicks writes:

"...Jesus identifies with sinners through the waters of John's baptism. He undergoes a ritual designed for penitent sinners. He goes down into the river with 'all the people' and identifies Himself with a people who need cleansing. Jesus dives in with His people who are looking for the kingdom of God. Through baptism Jesus joins Himself to His people and experiences solidarity with them. This is, of course, exactly what Jesus did in His own death. Quoting Isaiah 53:12, Jesus characterizes His own death as one that was 'counted among the lawless' (Luke 22:37). When Jesus went down into the river He counted Himself among the lawless - not because He was Himself a sinner, but because He identified with His people. He shared their corporate identity and underwent a cleansing ritual designed for sinners."

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mattrose
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Re: Baptism of Jesus

Post by mattrose » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:24 am

darinhouston wrote:What does all that have to do with righteousness?

...

has a tone or connotation of "requirement."
Well, I think the middle of my list was 'required' for Jesus to accomplish his righteous mission

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Paidion
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Re: Baptism of Jesus

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:33 pm

Hi Darin,
Thank you for your question concerning the reason Jesus was baptized and in what way was it fitting (πρεπω) for us (not "me") to fulfill all righteousness. I must admit that though I have asked myself this question in the past, I haven't thought much about it until last night and this morning. I looked at the commentators on the verse and was not at all satisfied with their explanations. Indeed, their explanation were much like some which have already been made in this thread, one of the most usual being that it was a ceremonial act to fulfill every ordinance that was required of Him.

Homer has stated, "But one thing seems obvious, and that is that we are not baptized for the same reason Jesus was baptized." With respect to sin, that is true. The writer to the Hebrews wrote that Jesus was "... one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin." From that one may conclude that Jesus never did anything to harm other people or Himself. And when we examine his life as recorded in the memoirs (or "gospels" if you prefer), this seems to be the case.

In Acts 2:38 it is recorded that Peter after giving a long discourse to the Jews and to other people who were mocking the tongues-speaking that came about as a result of the Christians being filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Dispute with me, if you wish, my translation of αφιημι as "forsaking" rather than "forgiveness", but that I won't get into that in this post)
So Peter's listeners had to repent (have a change of heart and mind) and also forsake their sins. Ananias also told Paul, "What are you waiting for? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins." But Jesus didn't have to repent or forsake his sins, or have them washed away, since He hadn't committed any sins.

However, in other respects, Jesus WAS baptized for the same reasons we are. In order make sense of my reasoning, one must first understand that Jesus was born as a human being—not as a God, nor a God-Man hybrid, but fully human. It is true that He pre-existed as the Son of God, and as the Son of God, He was fully divine. But when He became human, He divested Himself of all his divine attributes, retaining nothing but his identity as the Son of God. Even so, He never called Himself "the son of God", but always "the son of man," though when asked directly, He admitted that He was the Son of God.

Jesus words, "It is fitting that we fulfill all righteousness" are the first words of Jesus that were recorded in Matthew. As a true human being, a son of man, Jesus needed to begin a new life of service to God, just as we must come to that same point— a new beginning, a "regeneration". And Jesus' baptism there was such a new beginning in his life of service to his Father. Jesus, too, needed the Holy Spirit, so that He would "do nothing of Himself" (John 8:28) but be empowered by the spirit of God to do God's will. And that is exactly what happened at Jesus baptism (See the very next verse). For as soon as Jesus came up out of the waters of baptism, the Holy Spirit descended on Him and rested on Him, and remained on Him. A voice from heaven spoke, "“This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” He now had the Holy Spirit for empowerment, just as we have after we are baptized. Immediately after Jesus was baptized and had received the Holy Spirit, He was tempted by the devil, but did not yield. We, too, should have the power to overcome after our baptism. And immediately after THAT, Jesus began his ministry, proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom. We, too, after our baptism, should be empowered to witness and begin a life of service to God.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve7150
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Re: Baptism of Jesus

Post by steve7150 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:37 pm

I get the impression it was a requirement, but that's begs many questions. Hence my post.










I don't see the word "requirement" but Jesus said "it is fitting" which can have a different meaning such as Jesus did it for the "standard reasons" previously mentioned.
Requirement makes it seem that there was a legal requirement of some kind.

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