"But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

steve7150
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"But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by steve7150 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:18 pm

he is dragged away and enticed." James 1.14
James says we are tempted by our own lusts which is what happened to Eve as she gave in to the temptations that seemed to be already within her. God did'nt tempt her but Satan did with God's allowance yet the lusts were within her and Adam before the Serpent arrived. So i'm wondering how Adam and Eve could be perfect if they had these lusts within them , in fact i'm not sure if they were really innocent , because with these lusts within them they were an accident waiting to happen. In other words with these lusts in their hearts and minds already, was'nt it a matter of time before they sinned? If so then what do you think God has planned for mankind?

Jess
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Re: "But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by Jess » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:25 am

Hi Steve,

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

I see these verses acknowledging our bent toward sin. That is, we all struggle with lusts (or desires, as some versions translate it). It is when we choose to "linger" on the lust or give in to it that is when we fall and "sin is conceived".

Despite the fact they ultimately fell, I am not sure that Adam and Eve had the same bent toward sin that we do.

Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Seeing that the tree "was good for food"... etc. suggests to me that she found a reason to disbelieve God's statement that eating it would cause death. I guess I don't see her necessarily responding to a lust within herself as much as believing Satan's lie about not dying if she ate it.

Just my thoughts.

God Bless,

Jess

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steve
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Re: "But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by steve » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:48 am

So i'm wondering how Adam and Eve could be perfect if they had these lusts within them...
Adam and Eve were not perfect, because that word cannot apply in an absolute sense to anything but God. However, they were created innocent, and without built-in moral flaws.

The verse you quoted plainly says that such lusts are not sins. When the lusts conceive, they bring forth sin as a product. The lusts are often glandular desires (e.g., for food, sleep, sex, etc.), which God, in His goodness, built into man for the benefit of the individual and of the race. They are not imperfections. They were there when God looked upon all that He had made and declared it all "very good."

These lusts are attractions to things that are not in themselves evil (like food), but which may tempt one to commit evil (like stealing food). They are not wrong, any more than the force of magnetism can be said to be wrong—even though a magnet might be used to lift someone else's gold watch in order to carry it off. We could as well argue that the existence of food and alcohol are imperfections in God's creation because we have known some people who have become gluttons and drunks.

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darinhouston
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Re: "But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by darinhouston » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:54 am

Steve, do you believe we all have the same degree of "built-in" flaws, or do you believe there is some sort of spiritual "taint" that varies in different families? In other words, do you think a spiritual "stronghold" or the like can carry genetically to offspring beyond genetic "character traits/personality/etc" ? It's sort of a question of spiritual "nature vs. nurture" I guess.

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steve
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Re: "But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by steve » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:13 am

Hi Darin,

I don't know the answer to that. It seems that some children are disadvantaged more than others from birth—not only as in physical birth defects, but also with a more surly disposition. I don't know if that means those children are more morally/spiritually "flawed" than others, or if that is simply the particular manifestation of fallenness in their case. Results of fallenness in other, more well-behaved, children may possibly be just as severe, but not as noticeable or socially objectionable. Some people believe that there are "generational sins" that affect some families. I have never been able to reach any conclusions about this, since the Bible does not mention it, and because those families in which such sins are said to be manifest usually have observable social patterns that may account for the passing along of behavior.

steve7150
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Re: "But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by steve7150 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:43 pm

Adam and Eve were not perfect, because that word cannot apply in an absolute sense to anything but God. However, they were created innocent, and without built-in moral flaws.







OK but since the lusts were real and Adam and Eve originally had no knowledge of good and evil, why would they find the Serpent any less credible then God?

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steve
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Re: "But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by steve » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:10 pm

However naive they may have been, they should have had no problem distinguishing between the creature and the Creator.

steve7150
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Re: "But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by steve7150 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:05 am

Adam and Eve were not perfect, because that word cannot apply in an absolute sense to anything but God. However, they were created innocent, and without built-in moral flaws.





Maybe they were created perfect because if God from the beginning planned that they should know good and evil , then they were made perfect for the purpose God had made for them and everyone.
God knew what he was doing and how things would turn out before he created anything. "Declaring the end from the beginning" Isa 46.10
"But with the precious blood of Christ as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, Who was foreordained before the foundation of the world." 1 Pet 1.19

steve7150
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Re: "But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by steve7150 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:54 pm

The reason i find this interesting is that if Eve had lustfullness within her and no conscience yet and no knowledge of evil yet and was tempted by the master deceiver of the universe , could there really have been any other result? If this train of thought is true then God designed man to fall so he could know good and evil and ultimately become like Himself, at least in a certain way. I think Romans 8 actually may say that.
IMO this would suggest CU to be on the right track because although man is accountable for his works , the ultimate responsibility is God's if he first created man to be spiritually weak and not realistically able to resist Satan without any tools or knowledge or conscience whatsoever.
It's our conscience which gives us the ability to discern sin and Adam and Eve did'nt have one yet.

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Ian
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Re: "But each one is tempted when by his own lusts

Post by Ian » Thu May 06, 2010 5:23 am

I sometimes scroll through old posts on this forum (including those where I made the last comment!) and wonder what brought them to a halt. I wonder to myself, did others feel there was nothing more to be said because one simply cannot do more than conjecture on the matter? Or does unexpressed disagreement bring things to a stop? Probably either or both, depending.

With respect to this particular post, I would conjecture that steve7150 is onto something. If God is God then surely He knew that Adam would flunk it?
Is that such a radical aberation from orthodox theology (because it might leave a door open for some kind of UR interpretation), and is that why the post came to a halt? Just wondering.

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