Not one stone left upon another

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Paidion
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Not one stone left upon another

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:05 am

This post isn't meant as a "challenge". It's just a question.

And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” (Luke 21:5,6)

In actual fact, "It was not until the Dome of the Rock was built between 687 and 691 that the last remnants of the Temple were taken down."

See Wikipedia article below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple

So what is our explanation? I'm sure none of us would affirm that our Lord was "wrong" or was lying. I can think of only three possible explanations:

1. Our Lord's statement was hyperbole — rather common among the Hebrews.
2. The future cannot be known in advance where human agents are involved. So our Lord's statement was a prediction based on what He did know — and thus didn't fully coincide with what actually happened during the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.
3. His words actually did come true centuries later when the Dome of the Rock was built.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve
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Re: Not one stone left upon another

Post by steve » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:16 am

Hi Paidion,

I think hyperbole is allowable in such cases as this.

If the last stones were dismantled in the seventh century, then Jesus' words were literally fulfilled. Of course, not if every point in the Olivet Discourse (including "not one stone...") had to fall within the timeframe of "this generation."

There is a third concern some people raise about this, and that is that the "Wailing Wall" is still standing today. Some think that it represents a challenge to applying the "not one stone..." prophecy to the past, and that the Olivet Discourse must have a future fulfillment. Of course, the wailing wall was not one of the walls of the temple (it is a retaining wall for the temple mound), so it does not fall within the range of Christ's prediction.

DanielGracely
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Re: Not one stone left upon another

Post by DanielGracely » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:32 pm

A minority view by the late Ernest L. Martin proposes that the Temple was south of the Dome of the Rock platform. IMO one of his strongest arguments is that the Bible says the Temple was built in the immediate vicinity of the Gihon Spirings, which is south of the Temple Mount platform. This would have enabled the leftover blood of the many Temple sacrifices to be washed down. But Martin gives many other arguments along with explanations, such as how the Dome of the Rock came to be considered the proper location of the Temple due to the Moslem practice of barak, why the Wailing Wall may in fact belong to the Antonia Fortress and therefore not the Temple, why 7th century Jews requested to be settled south of the platform because they believed the Temple had been there, why the "Upper City" came to reference an area of Jerusalem west of the original city, and much, much more.

IMO the original site of the Temple lies under the strata South of the Temple Mount and outside the current city walls. I suspect at least the corner stones are intact, since the Romans soldiers who upturned the stones as they looked for gold would not have needed to remove the cornerstones if the adjacent stones on the bottom row showed no gold. BTW Josephus mentions how much cheaper the price of gold became after the Temple was destroyed.

The reason I became interested in this subject was because I was trying to prove a thesis of my brother's, that the sacred cubit was approx. 25 inches, a theory also held by Sir Isaac Newton, who devote an entire monograph to the subject of the sacred biblical cubit. Since at least some theories (like Kaufman's) involving the Dome of the Rock assume that some of the Temple structure has remained, I decided to do some research on the matter, since the stone remains which Kaufman cites follow a pattern of about a 17.5" cubit. Anyway, given Martin's evidences, I see no reason to suppose that Christ was speaking in hyperbole, when he said one stone would not be left upon another.

This link leads to some of the Ernest L. Martin material. http://askelm.com/temple/t001211.htm

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Perry
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Re: Not one stone left upon another

Post by Perry » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:47 am

Paidion wrote: ...
In actual fact, "It was not until the Dome of the Rock was built between 687 and 691 that the last remnants of the Temple were taken down."
...
I can think of only three possible explanations:

1. Our Lord's statement was hyperbole — rather common among the Hebrews.
2. The future cannot be known in advance where human agents are involved. So our Lord's statement was a prediction based on what He did know — and thus didn't fully coincide with what actually happened during the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.
3. His words actually did come true centuries later when the Dome of the Rock was built.

I can think of a fourth...
4. You're wrong.

I'm not saying you ARE wrong... just that it is another possible explanation. It's interesting that you didn't consider that as a possibility ;)

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Paidion
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Re: Not one stone left upon another

Post by Paidion » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:19 pm

You're right, Perry. I didn't think of that as a possibility. I still don't. For it's a fact that the last remnants of the temple were not taken down until the 7th century, and thus the Lord's words didn't literally come true in 70 A.D.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

DanielGracely
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Re: Not one stone left upon another

Post by DanielGracely » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:14 am

Paidion wrote:You're right, Perry. I didn't think of that as a possibility. I still don't. For it's a fact that the last remnants of the temple were not taken down until the 7th century, and thus the Lord's words didn't literally come true in 70 A.D.
Hi Paidon,

Did you miss my reply about Ernest L. Martin's view because of someone else replying to you, after I did? Or are you already familiar with Martin? He gives a lot of counterevidences to the kind of claim you're making. It's been a while since I've brushed up on his work, but it seems to me even Maimonedes supports his position.

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