Christianity: Performance-Based?

[Guest]

IMO the Baha'is are "loving their neighbor like themselves" and doing the second great command of Jesus which He said is LIKE the first. They may not know Jesus personally but they may know him as much as they can based on the light they have. Does God take this into consideration, i think so.

But are those Baha's born again? In order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Jesus told Nicodemus (sp??) that they MUST be born again. Have they died to self? Did they acknowledge that they are sinners and in need of Jesus. (John 14:6) Are they overcoming their sin? Are repentant? Just because a person emits good works, doesn't necessarily mean that that person has a transformed heart. Muslims emit good works; Buddhists (sp??) emit good works, and if anyone knows a thing or three about Muslims and Buddhists, they are definitely NOT Christians. Just go read about what they believe.

The Living Water must flow from within, doesn't it? Pagans emit good works all the time, don't they? So what does that tell us? It tells us that pagan works are indeed doing good works but they are not flowing from the "innermost being." They are doing them "on the surface," they are doing them to get some sort of recognition, they are doing them to get something for them, them are doing them for some other incentive. They are doing them in their own strength. Always.

STEVE7150 and Homer, what is your answer to the following questions in Romans 10:14, 15?

1 - "How the shall they call on Him [Jesus] in whom they have not believed?"
2 - "And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?"
3 - "And how shall they hear without a preacher?"
4 - "And how shall they preach, except they be sent?..."

1 Timothy 6:18 - "That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate"

But look at the next verse - "Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life."

So people do good works all the time but are they flowing from within? By doing the works, what do they expect to gain by it? What is their motivation. Heaven? Popularity? Money? Recognition? Or whatever. The true Christian's motivation should be none of these things. Jesus said that if you loved Him, you would keep ALL His commandments, didn't He? No other "religion" (and Christianity is not a religion in the purest sense of the word) teaches that God would dwell in all those who believe in Him, and give them power to overcome, etc. Are they drawing on the power of God or are they doing it on their own? Emanuel Esh is his article "Are the Heathen Really Lost?" says the following "Let us remember that no substitute religion can save any sinner from his sins. ... No form of religion - even the Christian form - can save one man from his sin. Only the crucified Lord Jesus Christ has the power to save a man from sin. It is His blood alone that can cleanse a sinner from his guilty sin stains."

I think it is a lie from Satan that says that just because the heathens emit good works, they know the true God. Jesus said that the question he would be "Did I know you?". And the same Jesus said that you CANNOT know Him, you CANNOT be His disciple unless you are born again, and are keeping His commandments. (John 15:10) Like I said, just go read what Muslims believe. Its ugly. Satan has been successful in deceiving people into thinking that we shouldn't evangelist the lost. "No man can serve two masters..." "If you love brother, mother, etc., more than me..."

1 Corinthians 15:1-3: "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures"

Is that the Gospel which is being preached? If not, it is a false gospel, I’m sorry.

That's some food for thought. Did that help? We should probably stick to the original topic though, "Christianity: Performance Based," or else Steve would chide us. What are you thoughts and opinions on our “performance” in light of all the previous posts?

Agape,

loaves

[Guest]

Loaves,

I believe I am on the topic, I'm seeking to define "performance". I can't disagree with anything you or Steve7150 said in reply to my last post.

Unless I misunderstand both of you, you admit unbelievers produce good fruit, at least in some sense, despite Jesus' statement that good fruit can not be produced by those who do not abide in Him. I agee that many good deeds (agape) are done by unbelievers, more so than many Christians. That is obvious. I also believe Jesus is exactly right in His statement. The good deeds that we see unbelievers do can not be the good fruit Jesus spoke of.

Unless Jesus was using hyperbole, which I doubt, His definition of "good fruit" must be different than a cursory reading His words would lead one to believe. Everywhere we are told the final judgement will be based on what we have done, yet we can not do the good He seeks apart from Him.

Again I ask, what is the "good fruit" Jesus had in mind? I do not see how the original question can be answered in a meaningful way unless we define "performance".

[Guest]

What are "good" works? That's a good question. What does "performance" mean? That's another good question. I'll try to tackle that in this post.

But I must say this to begin, quoting from Esh again: "To think that the heathen will somehow be saved outside the gospel of Christ is to believe in error." And so, I guess my first point is: Christ. Christ empowers us to live righteously. He flows from within. Oh, you can do works. Pagans do works, maybe even ones that look like "good" works. But is it flowing from within? No. I have discussed that already. So what am I getting at?

Acts 26:20 - "...and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

The Nature of God and Works

1 - Whatever we do, and however we do it, to do it God's way, it MUST glorify God. Right? What was the first thing Jesus prayed when he was teaching His disciples how to pray? "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name." So, whatever we do, whatever we say, whatever we write, whatever we think about should always bring glory to God. I think we can all agree to that. Do you and I do that? We should, God expects nothings less. Is that our motive? It should be. Do the heathen do that? I don't think so.

2 - Now what does "good" mean to us? How do we define it. In cases like this we must consult Mr. Webster (the one who lived way back.) Noah Webster informs me that there are approx. 40 meanings to the word "good." We are referring to the God-like trait "good" which would be the 4th definition: "qualities which God's law requires." Well, God requires holiness, God requires kindness, God requires loves, and down the list we go. "God" is not "Good", "Good" is "God." And so technically the heathen cannot do "good" works in the sense of what God requires. The Christian life is impossible to live without Christ. Jesus said that the real test is not to "love those that love you" (Sermon on the Mount, "SOTM" hereafter), but to love those that hate you, despise you, torture you, kill you, etc., can the unconverted heathen do that? Can the heathen talk with their Creator, and He talk back. Can the heathen give offerings joyfully, not because they get something out of it, but because it pleases God? Can they truly “love” one another (i.e. – have concern for the condition of their soul, not the lovey-dovey kind of love). Now, here is the kicker: can they do it from within, without a single other motive than glorifying God? I don't think so. That was my point, no one can do "good" works in the purest sense of the word, apart from Christ.

3 - What is "performance." What does old Noah Webster say? Let's find out. He notifies me that "performance" means to "complete" anything to "execute" anything. Well, we can't perfectly "complete" something without Christ, and apart from His strength. Do you follow me?

I outlined different mentalities of "performance" above. I hope this clears things up. Let's continue this discussion. What are your opinions of what "works" and "performance" means? Anyone is welcomed.

Agape,

loaves

[Guest]

The apostle Peter made a statement you may want to read in context and ponder.

And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:35 RSV)