Jesus in other historical documents...

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_MightyHalo
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Post by _MightyHalo » Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:39 am

Hey Loaves, thats not too much for me to process at all. Thanks for posting!

I would love to find out who did the Josepheus mathamatical test. Its very curious.... but again, does not change the fact that Jesus was written about by others.

I really appreciate this forum! My friend turned me onto it a few weeks ago as well Steve Gregg's ministries about a year ago. I love learning the truth and I have listened to everyone from Ken Ham to Kent Hovind. I think Steve's approach is far less intrusive and more on a balanced side of a display of knowlege. (this all should probablly be posted in a different thread) hee hee... :)

Thanks for everything! It really is fun and helps.

- Sir Mighty Halo (Brian)
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:11 am

Thanks for that link, Derek. The Arab account of Josephus' writings could be the true one. In that account, Josephus did not say that Jesus became alive again after three days, but rather His disciples made that claim. And not that He was Messiah, but rather that His disciples said so.

I have often wondered, too, how Josephus could have affirmed Jesus' messiaship and his resurrection while maintaining his own non-discipleship.
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_chriscarani
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Post by _chriscarani » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:19 am

Hello everyone,


I'm afraid my maybe memory was not accurate on the subject. The debate I had a while ago might not have been about Luke "forging" the Josephus documents. The theory I am thinking of is simply based on the Testimonium Flavianum, and the Emmaus narrative having to many parallels to have been written using different sources. I can’t find the link and the person I debated the subject with has not responded yet. So for now I will say I was wrong.

Again there are several different theories basically with one goal in mind, and that is to discredit the Josephus passages.

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/LUKECH.htm

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/statist.htm

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/contAn1.htm


The last link will show the statistical analysis and will have another page with more data.


That ( the use of the word tribes by Josephus ) is a very interesting point Paidon and one I think goes overlooked. Perhaps my mythical theory :oops: is a bit "ludicrous". These theories above, I think, at least merit some consideration and seem far from ludicrous, but maybe lean on the ambitious side.
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_MightyHalo
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Post by _MightyHalo » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:31 am

Wow! These links are fantastic! Thanks for sharing!

- Sir Mighty Halo (Brian)
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Post by _chriscarani » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:47 am

MightyHalo wrote:
Wow! These links are fantastic! Thanks for sharing!

- Sir Mighty Halo (Brian)
Hey no problem. I hope they provide you with some debate ammo with your friends. In my experience that fact that you understand a subject with greater clarity, and with more clarity than a non-believer who tries to use it against you, has shown itself to have a profound impact on that person.
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Post by _loaves » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:38 am

About the “Chaos Theory.”

Snowflakes, tacks spilled on the floor, a series of numbers generated by a computer program, all appear to be disordered or “random.”

Classical mathematics is divided between that which is <i>deterministic</i> (i.e. 2+2=4), and that which is <i>stochastic</i> (i.e. – “random” variables).

Mathematics, however, has never been able to prove the physical existence of randomness. This study of perceived randomness has emerged into a field of math known as “Chaos Theory.”

Even the ambiguous comfort our Greek-thinking, American minds find in true randomness is called into question.

By just sheer statistics, one would hypothetically conclude that at least 1 pair of snowflakes in a snowstorm are the same, due to what we call “randomness.” Now, of course, there is no way to find out for sure, since we surmise that over 1 trillion snowflakes fall in each storm. But there was this guy back in the 19th century who took photos of over 5000 snowflakes in his lifetime. He examined each one very closely. What did he find? Not 1 pair was the same.

It is interesting that the Bible has maintained all along that God is in control:

“The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.” (Proverbs 16:33)

Einstein once said, “God doesn’t play dice (If He did, He’d win)”
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Post by _chriscarani » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:41 pm

Thanks Loaves. I appreciate this.

It seems to me it is not that unlikely that Luke and Josephus used common termonolgy when speaking of this event. They were both historians in the Greco-Roman world around the same time and as Luke states in Luke 1:1-4. that many accounts were written on the story of Jesus. I don't see the need for some lost gospel both of them used as a source, as some of the skeptics do.
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_David
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Testimonium Flavium

Post by _David » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:13 pm

Hello,
I am joining this thread late, but wanted to recommend a book called "Josephus and the New Testament" by Steve Mason. Although I do not know this for certain, I get the impression from reading this book that the author is not a believer, and so his writing is free from any motive to make Josephus' writings say more than they really do.
Scholars apparently have known that the authenticity of this text from Josephus' writings was suspect, beginning as far back as the 16th century. By 1863, German scholars had written entire books just on this one passage. Some of the problems raised with this passage by scholars are:
1) This testimony does not fit the context of the rest of Antiquities 18 - Josephus is speaking of the futility of the Jewish rebellion and the multitude of troublemakers present at that time, and then mysteriously in the same breath mentions Jesus (also considered by some in his day to be a rabble-rouser) and does so in a favorable way, almost sounding as if he supports Jesus and his followers
2) The phrase "This man was Christ" has raised questions, first because of the use of the word Christ, as it would have special meaning for a Jewish audience only. Much of Josephus' audience was Roman, since he had been appointed by Rome to keep a historical record of the Jewish rebellion from a Roman point-of-view. Usually, when referring to traditions and ideas that were distinctly Jewish, Jospehus would pause and explain their significance so his audience could understand it's deeper meaning. He supposedly refers to Jesus as "the Christ" or literally, "the annointed" - yet offers no explanation to his gentile pagan audience.
3) Jospehus, though a worldly man by most accounts, was an advocate for Judaism, and had a commitment to the sufficiency of Judaism. The statement "This man was Christ" sounds like his own confession, yet is in contradistiction to everything else he wrote in regard to religion
4) This testominy does not appear in copies of Antiquities present before the fourth century. We do not have the original copy of Jospehus' writings, and the earliest known copies (known as P and A) date from the ninth century. However, we have record of a dozen Christian authors from the second and third century who were familiar with Josephus' writings. It is important to note that none of these authors mention Josphus' belief in Jesus, though his writings are quoted in other respects.
5) Origen stated in two different contexts that Joesphus did not believe in Jesus as Christ. In one instance, Origen expresses his wonder that the Jewish historian "did not accept that our Jesus is Christ" (Commentary on Matthew to Matt. 10:17). Also, in Against Celsus, he directs the reader to Josephus' own defense of Judaism, but then states regrettably that Josephus "did not believe in Jesus as Christ" (Against Celsus 1.47).
6) The testimony is fluid in early Christian writings, which suggests it was not "fixed", and therefore not authentic. Eusebius quotes three different versions of it in three of his writings. Jerome has an even different wording of it.
Though it is exciting to see a possible correlation between Josephus's writings and the events of 70AD, I think a word of caution is in order about using Jospehus for much else, including listing him as a believer.

I hope this helps.
God bless,
David
[/i]
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Re: Testimonium Flavium

Post by _MightyHalo » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:42 am

David wrote:Hello,
I am joining this thread late, but wanted to recommend a book called "Josephus and the New Testament" by Steve Mason. Although I do not know this for certain, I get the impression from reading this book that the author is not a believer, and so his writing is free from any motive to make Josephus' writings say more than they really do.
Scholars apparently have known that the authenticity of this text from Josephus' writings was suspect, beginning as far back as the 16th century. By 1863, German scholars had written entire books just on this one passage. Some of the problems raised with this passage by scholars are:
1) This testimony does not fit the context of the rest of Antiquities 18 - Josephus is speaking of the futility of the Jewish rebellion and the multitude of troublemakers present at that time, and then mysteriously in the same breath mentions Jesus (also considered by some in his day to be a rabble-rouser) and does so in a favorable way, almost sounding as if he supports Jesus and his followers
2) The phrase "This man was Christ" has raised questions, first because of the use of the word Christ, as it would have special meaning for a Jewish audience only. Much of Josephus' audience was Roman, since he had been appointed by Rome to keep a historical record of the Jewish rebellion from a Roman point-of-view. Usually, when referring to traditions and ideas that were distinctly Jewish, Jospehus would pause and explain their significance so his audience could understand it's deeper meaning. He supposedly refers to Jesus as "the Christ" or literally, "the annointed" - yet offers no explanation to his gentile pagan audience.
3) Jospehus, though a worldly man by most accounts, was an advocate for Judaism, and had a commitment to the sufficiency of Judaism. The statement "This man was Christ" sounds like his own confession, yet is in contradistiction to everything else he wrote in regard to religion
4) This testominy does not appear in copies of Antiquities present before the fourth century. We do not have the original copy of Jospehus' writings, and the earliest known copies (known as P and A) date from the ninth century. However, we have record of a dozen Christian authors from the second and third century who were familiar with Josephus' writings. It is important to note that none of these authors mention Josphus' belief in Jesus, though his writings are quoted in other respects.
5) Origen stated in two different contexts that Joesphus did not believe in Jesus as Christ. In one instance, Origen expresses his wonder that the Jewish historian "did not accept that our Jesus is Christ" (Commentary on Matthew to Matt. 10:17). Also, in Against Celsus, he directs the reader to Josephus' own defense of Judaism, but then states regrettably that Josephus "did not believe in Jesus as Christ" (Against Celsus 1.47).
6) The testimony is fluid in early Christian writings, which suggests it was not "fixed", and therefore not authentic. Eusebius quotes three different versions of it in three of his writings. Jerome has an even different wording of it.
Though it is exciting to see a possible correlation between Josephus's writings and the events of 70AD, I think a word of caution is in order about using Jospehus for much else, including listing him as a believer.

I hope this helps.
God bless,
David
[/i]
Hi David,

In your opinion, does that book basically say that Josephus never wrote about a "man called Jesus", or does is only discount the fact that Josephus thought that "Jesus was the Christ"?

Thanks so much for your post.

- Sir Mighty Halo (Brian)
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Post by _David » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:53 pm

Hello Brian,
There is little dispute from Steve Mason's book or other writings on Josephus that Josephus did in fact mention Jesus (he mentioned John the Baptist also, and I believe James as well). However, there is little evidence that he wrote of Jesus as "the Christ". In fact, he probably referred to him as "a wizard", since that is what the consensus of the texts indicate. Wizard probably refers to Jesus' reputation as a miracle worker, but also shows Josephus' bias (as a liberal Jew) against Jesus being a messenger sent from God. The phrase "was the Christ" was probably a textual corruption added some time after the ninth century. This is no way hurts the belief Christians have in Jesus' existence since Josephus acknowledges him as a real person (as do many pagan authors of Jesus' time). If anything, it gives us another unbiased account that Jesus did exist, since Josephus was not a Christian and had no ulterior motive for lying about Jesus' existence.
Most Christians (myself included) are not steeped in knoweldge of the early Christian writers, but a significant minority of us have heard of Jospehus or have at least heard him mentioned. Unfortunately, he is often described incorrectly as another witness of Jesus' identity as Messiah, and that kind of arguement can weaken one's defense of the faith if you're discussing the matter with an unbeliever who is aware of the problems with the authenticity of the tesitmonium flavium.
I hope this helps.
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In Christ,
David

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