Mark's Geography-Jesus' trip to and from the Tyre-Sidon Reg.

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:05 am

On the surface, it would appear Dr. Kornform (Jackal, and critics alike) is correct and Mark did not know the area. However, when we take a close look at the Scriptures, a 3D topographical map, a map of the trade routes during the time of Christ, and examine the area under consideration, then Kornform' (Jackal, and the critic's)objection is seen to be completely without merit.

First, both Mark 7:24-31 and Matthew 15:21-28 tell essentially the same story. The space both devote is about the same, with Mark's version only a few words shorter. Nowhere is there any conflict between the two evangelists.

Second, Mark nowhere states as Kornform (Jackal, and the critic) "alleges" that Jesus went to Tyre and then Sidon to the North and then back to Tyre and then Sidon. Dr. Kornform (and Jackal) is being disingenuous and hoping that no one will carefully examine the text and route. Mark states Jesus went to the REGION that included both cities. Matthew likewise agrees with Mark, "Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the REGION of Tyre and Sidon." Matt 15:21 (NKJ) Tyre is 20 miles to the south of Sidon, and so the REGION is not very large. That Jesus went to and from the REGION, but did not necessarily enter Tyre itself, both Mark and Matthew agree. Clearly, Dr. Kornform (Jackal, and the critic)is wrong.

Third, regarding the return trip, Mark says Jesus departed from the REGION of Tyre and Sidon through Sidon. Matthew simply states Jesus departed to the area of the Sea of Galilee. The question remains as to why Jesus went through Sidon and then to Decapolis.

That the distance between two points on a map is not always the shortest or best route is the main reason armies use topographical maps for land navigation. Normally it is far easier to walk through a valley than to go over mountains. Looking at the topographical map above, we see the Bekka Valley's entrance at Sidon running through Galilee and the Decapolis all the way to the Red Sea. Walking directly to and from Tyre would involve traversing a steep mountainous region known as the Ladders of Tyre, which helped protect the city, since it was difficult for an army to access the area except from the direction of Sidon. It should now be obvious to all that Jesus took the best route, with the only question remaining as to why he went through Decapolis. Editor's note, see Trade Route map which shows the routes during the time of Christ.

Fourth, Dr. Kornform (perhaps Jackal and the critic alike)stated it was Jesus’ intention to go from Tyre to Galilee, nowhere do we find that in the text. In fact, both Mark and Matthew agree on this point. In Mark we read, "Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis," Mark 7:31 (NIV) and in Matthew, "And Jesus departed from thence, and came nigh unto the sea of Galilee; and went up into a mountain, and sat down there." Matthew 15:29 (KJV) After Jesus left Sidon and walked south through the Bekka Valley, he came to the Sea of Galilee. At that point he could turn either to the West and go through Galilee, or east and go through the Decapolis. Galilee sits on the West side of the Sea of Galilee, whereas the Decapolis sits on the East and Southern shores of the sea. Matthew states Jesus went up on a mountain or as the KJV reads a hill. Clearly, this would be what today we know to be the Golan Heights on the Eastern shore. Later, in Mark 8:10, we read that Jesus got in a boat and went to the region of Dalmanutha, which is on the East shore of the Sea of Galilee and in Galilee itself.

Two evangelists and geography confirm that Jesus likely took the route through the Bekka Valley to the regions of Tyre and Sidon. Clearly, Jesus’ trip is accurately reported in the Scriptures, and Dr. Kornfrom is blatantly wrong on all points.

Grace and peace,
Dr. Gary

For the whole discussion between Dr. Gary Butner and a hyper skeptic about Mark's Geography, see here http://www.errantskeptics.org/Marks_Geo ... Mark_7.htm

Post by **_jackal** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:52 pm

Boy, talk about taking the scenic route. Maybe Butner should find a Boy Scout to help him read the topo maps.

The quickest way from Tyre to the Sea of Galilee area, including the Decapolis, is to travel about 4 miles north from Tyre, to the mouth of the Litani River, that section of which is also called the Kasmia River. In ancient times, that was the start of the Tyre - Damascus trade route. That route followed the Kasmia River east, until the river broke northeast into the Beqaa Valley. The trade route proceeded east past the ancient city of Dan, at the north end of the Hula Basin. From Dan, one could follow the Leddan River straight south to the Sea of Galilee.

Contrary to Butner's assertion, there is no direct route or river valley into the Beqaa Valley from Sidon. To get from the Beqaa Valley from Sidon, one would have to travel east through some of the most mountainous terrain in southern Lebanon, to again reach the Litani River, but much further north. One would have to follow the Litani River southwest about 15 miles until it again intersected the Tyre - Damascus trade route, near Dan. All told, Butner's route would be about 50 miles longer, including 15 miles of very rugged terrain, than simply taking the Tyre - Damascus road.

Once again, the description of the route in Mark shows no sense, and it is Butner that is 'blatantly wrong on all points.'

Post by **_Christopher** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:22 pm

Bravo Jackal! But you still haven't told us what YOU believe.

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:42 pm

Christopher,

I have a feeling he used to be a believer, and is no longer a professing one. Yet he is unsure of the reality of Christ and the reliability of the Scriptures. So what he does, is challenge educated Christians with the objections against Christianity. Part of him hopes that the objections can be answered adequately by Christians, though he may be more convinced that they cannot be answered, and the Scriptures as for as spiritual things go are not the true reality of life, truth, and existence. But, in case he is wrong, he doesn't want to be held accountable for leading people away from the truth. Plus, he probably isn't sure what he believes is certain, nor could people trust with their lives that what he believes is the true reality of life.

Yet, I admit I am guessing, and I could be wrong, it would be nice for jackal to tell us what he believes though. We have been waiting. Oh, and Jackal, am I right about yourself? Tell us about yourself, your life, and journey for truth.

SoaringEagle

Post by **_Homer** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:15 am

Yes, Jackal, let us know, are you a nullity?

Post by **_jackal** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:30 am

Christopher wrote:Bravo Jackal! But you still haven't told us what YOU believe.

Pvt. Upham: "Where are you from, Captain?"

Capt. Miller (smiling): "What's the pool up to?"

Pvt. Upham (caught, smiling): "Over three-hundred"

Capt. Miller: "I'll tell you what, if I'm still alive when it hits five-hundred, I'll let you know and we'll split the money."

-Saving Private Ryan

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:52 am

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:59 am

Jackal,

I copied your response to Dr. Gary to see what he'd say. Hope you didn't mind, but if you did and I done something wrong, please let me know. Anyways, he wrote me back, and here is what he said:

Prior to my writing the article I thought following the river from and to the Bekka Valley would be the route Jesus took. However, according to the Lebanese Embassy the river route is impassable. Rather the route would be the pass to the east of Sidon. This was confirmed by a minister from Lebanon. Additionally, on a trip to Israel my guide for two weeks was the Israeli commander for the Tyre Region when they occupied the area. He likewise confirmed there is a pass into the Bekka Valley near Sidon, and that is the correct route. Your skeptic is looking at a map I also found which shows ancient trade routes. The map is not correct.

Sincerely,

Gary Butner, Th.D.

Post by **_jackal** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:56 pm

SoaringEagle wrote:Jackal,

I copied your response to Dr. Gary to see what he'd say. Hope you didn't mind, but if you did and I done something wrong, please let me know. Anyways, he wrote me back, and here is what he said:

Prior to my writing the article I thought following the river from and to the Bekka Valley would be the route Jesus took. However, according to the Lebanese Embassy the river route is impassable. Rather the route would be the pass to the east of Sidon. This was confirmed by a minister from Lebanon. Additionally, on a trip to Israel my guide for two weeks was the Israeli commander for the Tyre Region when they occupied the area. He likewise confirmed there is a pass into the Bekka Valley near Sidon, and that is the correct route. Your skeptic is looking at a map I also found which shows ancient trade routes. The map is not correct.

Sincerely,

Gary Butner, Th.D.

There are numerous sources available which note the existance of the Tyre - Damascus road, and that Dan was situate on that road:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 9&letter=R

http://www.ancientsandals.com/overviews/dan.htm

http://www.ourfatherlutheran.net/bibleh ... ee/dan.htm

This site discusses the area around Banias (caesarea phillipi) and shows the ancient Roman road, as researched by Dr. Israel Roll, of Tel Aviv University.

http://www.netours.com/2003/banias.htm

As can be seen from the relief map, the road crossed the mountain and traversed the northern end of the Hula valley, giving direct access to the Sea of Galilee, as well as passing Dan and Caesarea Phillipi.

Here is an excerpt from the 1929 book, Lands of the Bible. This particular part describes the areas of southern phoenicia / northern galilee. If you go down to the third paragraph, you will see that the author had little trouble going from the Litani River, crossing at an ancient bridge, passing through the Ijon valley. The author notes that the valley appeared to be totally surrounded by a rim of mountain ridges, but then they found a gorge, through which they entered the valley of the upper Jordan and saw Lake Huleh. So, I don't know if your source didn't do enough exploring, but there was a pass at least through 1929.

http://www.dabar.org/McGarvey/Lands/P3_C16.htm

This author doesn't say whether he was following the ancient Roman road, but nevertheless he was able to cross the mountainous area in Nabitiye separating the Litani and Hula basins.

This road, traversing Nabitiye (Naphali) between the Litani and Hula basins, from Tyre through Dan, also matches the description of the "seaward road" in Isaiah 8:23 and Matt. 4:15.

I don't know when Butner wrote his article, but could the 'river route' as he calls it, been impassable for political / military reasons (being the border between Israel and Lebanon) rather than geographical / topographical reasons?

Post by **_Christopher** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:56 pm

Jackal wrote:

Christopher wrote:
Bravo Jackal! But you still haven't told us what YOU believe.

Pvt. Upham: "Where are you from, Captain?"

Capt. Miller (smiling): "What's the pool up to?"

Pvt. Upham (caught, smiling): "Over three-hundred"

Capt. Miller: "I'll tell you what, if I'm still alive when it hits five-hundred, I'll let you know and we'll split the money."

-Saving Private Ryan

The thing is, if you're not willing to give a positive assertion about what you do believe, why should anyone pay any attention to your negative assertions about what you don't?

Are you only interested in playing offense? Why not play a little "d" for a change?